Blizzard will never admit that Survival rework is a failure

Maybe learn the spec first?

LnL was a chance per tick, not just a guaranteed 1 proc sometime during it. It very often proced more than once per cast, giving 4+ procs per minute.

Also, weird how my number of LnL procs is right in line with the 37.5s average interval. Maybe math actually works. Weird.


Neat my point is still there you’re casting it just as often as you would explosive shot. :upside_down_face:

So you would have windows where you would cast it more often? Sounds familiar.

No. No I’m not. I cast it on average every ~10-11 seconds during the fight, but 2 out of 3 GCDs during Trueshot.

If you had an ability with a 30s cooldown, and then every 5 minutes you got to cast it 20 times inside a single GCD (say, Convoke or similar), does that mean you were casting it every 6s?

No, you were casting it every 30s, plus a massive burst once. Same mechanic as Trueshot. During the CD, you basically just spam Aimed Shot, but outside it, you spend the majority of your time using Steady and Arcane, not Aimed.

Edit: honestly, I’m done here. The intellectual dishonest you’re piling into this argument is overwhelming. As far as you’re concerned, abilities being named the same makes them the same ability, and a CD letting you spam an ability for 15s is equivalent, in rotational feel, to casting that ability twice as often the rest of the time. According to you, a 2.5s cast and an instant ability are the same thing.

You’ve decided your conclusion, and you’re literally just vomiting words because you’re literally psychologically incapable of believing you’re wrong.

As they say, don’t mud wrestle with pigs. You both get filthy, and the pigs enjoy it.


No, I didn’t.

Congratulations on missing the whole point.

And as others have already explained, you’re plain wrong here.

Since when is Aimed Shot the same as Explosive Shot(RSV version)?

Are you talking about Flayed Shot from Venthyr? I hate to break it to you but it interacts with Kill Shot. Not Explosive Shot.

It’s also a borrowed power tied to a specific covenant. So again, no. Not even close.

Still not designed to function close to how the RSV-version of Explosive Shot did.

Others here have already explained why…

Wow, impressive.

The actual mechanical implications and functionality slipped right by you it seems.

And the main difference is that it did not intend for you to seek out melee. It intended for the exact opposite of that. That being the main goal with most of the talents found in the SV category at the time.


You seem to be the only one doing this…

Getting the point yet?


I mean, let’s be honest here, Brigade is the type of person that’d insist that vanilla ice cream and an airplane are the exact same thing because they’re both white in color.

Edit: or perhaps more applicably, that British football and American football are the same sport because they’re both named “football”.


On average that’s one every 10 seconds in a 5 min fight so math checks out. But I guess if you are only casting one aimed shot every 10 seconds that explains a lot.

All of your insults don’t help prove your point either. My feelings are hurty.

I said similar build you guys are having a hard time reading my posts. I get it I wouldn’t read everything someone said if I was mad either.

Did I lie? It procs a free cast of a hard hitting ability. Borrowed power or not its still relevant to retail not an expansion 5+ years ago.

Again I’m talking about the fantasy are you not reading my posts?

The thematic of firing your ranged weapon really really fast?

And look at that they made it so you can actually seek out melee to fight.

Are you? lol

They’re not??
It’s more like you’re telling me that Michael Jordan should not be allowed to play professional golf because he is a basketball player and we shouldn’t consider him a golfer ever.
I’m telling you Michael Jordan Pro basketball player and Michael Jordan Pro golfer are the same person.

ZOOM ZOOM ZOOM, Bepples makes my heart go BOOM BOOM my super nova girl.

My original question on this thread was what do people want back from rsv.

The people that tell me they want a spec that mechanically the same I keep telling you that current venthyr marks aside from ability names is mechanically similar to rsv but its not meta. Keyword for people trying not to read is SIMILAR not EXACTLY THE SAME. Most other spec/classes have gone through changes that makes them SIMILAR to what they were to previous expansions but not exactly the same.

People that want the Fantasy of having explosive shot still have it in the game. Tough break its a 30 sec cd.

All I’m getting from most of you is not what they want back but rather “DELETE MSV” and a slew of insults. Seems like none of you really want RSV play style back you just want the name.

This will be my only response to you.

This is exactly why I said you are either extremely dense or a blatant troll. They have told you repeatedly what they want, and explained how what you are suggesting is unequivocally false.

Current iterations of many of the RSV abilities are not the same. This is not debatable.

The core gameplay and mechanics of MM are different than that of RSV. This is not debatable.

You have used the term EXACT… not just “similar”. I’m not going to bother quoting you. This is not debatable.

Yes, most other specs have gone through changes and are now “similar”. RSV and MSV are not. That’s kind of the whole point. This is not debatable.

Many people have said they would be fine leaving MSV in the game, and going to 4 specs. You just ignore that and live in your own little bubble. Each one of your points has been addressed multiple times. They have said repeatedly that they want the RSV MECHANICS, not just the NAME. You just keep repeating your own false narrative over and over.

This thread is titled “Blizzard will never admit that Survival rework is a failure”. Regardless of whether or not they would actually ever admit it… it is true.

The only metrics you could base the spec being a success are enjoyment and profit. More players will play the spec if they enjoy it, and Blizzard makes more money because the players are still playing. It’s a popularity contest. It’s really that simple. MSV has never had a healthy population = it failed.

Idc if you keep your dead meme spec.


You’re being overly semantic, then.

Anything pre-SOO, they’re quite clearly referring to Heroic raiding.

I want to see RSV return, but I’ll admit that it had one major problem for the designers that they couldn’t get around: it’s basically a ranged melee with all the strengths of both DPS types and no weaknesses. (Seriously, name one weakness RSV had in PVE because I can’t think of any.) It had consistent and strong AOE, single target damage, a good proc with its strongest ability, a simple playstyle with an easy concept and little to no ramp up, good CC, and was good for raid mechanics. It dominated for three expansions because of the strength of that consistency, and I can see why the designers wouldn’t want to see it return.

There’s a reason I refer to MSV as the John Walker of hunter specs: no matter how hard it tries, it’ll never match up to its predecessor and everyone hates it.

That being said, I’m not on board with that opinion and would rather see it return, but there you go.

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What part of his/her post even remotely hints at this being what he/she was referring to?

You mean apart from the fact that it was one of the weakest dps specs in the game when it came to burst potential?

This being a very large factor to why so few stuck with it during HFC, especially considering how both the lego ring and the encounters themselves heavily favored specs that focused on burst.

If it was so strong in it’s foundation, how come it wasn’t always at the top?

When you say this, what is your point of reference here? Because there are several other specs in the game, even back then, which required less set-up.

What expansions were those?

There were actually only a few times, a few tiers, when it was ahead of all other specs, and that was never by a sizeable margain.

This is not the reason for why they removed it.


You’re right they’re not the same. They’re similar.

Please elaborate. You spam your hard hitting ability every cd, you fish for a free proc of it and to top it all off you get free serpent stings off your abilities.

Repeating the phrase “That is not debatable.” is really helping you assert your dominance I like do it more.

I have been saying current MM is similar to RSV. Never said MSV was the same. Ooooooh you said it again.

I never ignored it I agree with it should have been a 4th spec. I also keep saying rsv mechanics are there they’re just not optimal but yall are focused on meta. Where are you guys getting this from?

An opinion.

Not true. Blizz thinks conduit energy was a success. Even though only a small number of players even have problems with it we can all agree that having conduit energy was a failure.

Thanks! I will!

You’re still plain wrong.

Nothing you can do with MM allows for a playstyle that is even remotely close to the core gameplay tied to the RSV.

The fundamental design of MM includes Steay Shot, Aimed Shot, Arcane Shot, Rapid Fire, along with many passive effects and interactions which act as key elements of the spec.
You can pick, Serpent Sting, Explosive Shot, Lock & Load from the talents, and none of it would take away that fundamental design. It wouldn’t even properly add elements of RSV to current MM as they don’t work like they used to on a mechanical level.

If anything, it seems like you’re the one not reading what others are posting.


Yes, Kill Shot. Not Explosive Shot.

Those 2 aren’t even close to being the same ability, again, based on the RSV-version of Explosive Shot.

Yes I am.

And again, it’s not just about the fantasy. Everyone else here is concerned with the mechanical design and how it all came together to form a coherent loop/playstyle.

This is why your argument is deeply flawed because none of what you say, amounts to the above.

See above.


There’s similar abilities available through Talents and Legendarys, when looking at the MM spec. Those MM abilities, should they be selected, don’t approximate the RSV playstyle mechanics, they lack the synergy to do it.
A spec is more than a pile of abilities, it is how they work together that makes the spec. Selecting those talents, I still play like a MM.


What kind of hoodoo magical girl unique fantasy spec do you guys think rsv was??
You literally hit what was off of cd, spam your filler, and mash what ever ability procced. I’m starting to think you guys are delusional if you think even for a moment rsv had some amazing play style unlike any other play style.

Literally In Wod heres the survival set up now hold on to your seat boys im about to show you some crazy similarities to MM right now.

Cobra shot = Steady shot - - - Filler focus generator
Aimed shot = Explosive shot - - - Ability to be used off of cd and you can get procs of
Arcane shot = speaks for itself literally the same attack used as a focus dump
Rapid Fire = Barrage/Glaive toss Longer cd ability you instantly hit off of cd

You need to read bro I said it procs a free cast of a hard hitting ability you’re mad cause the icon isn’t yellow is all I’m seeing here.

See above.

Almost like the balance team doesn’t know how to balance. Still doesn’t mean those abilities don’t exist.

You guys seem to be missing the fundamentals of how some dps classes work. Idk if you know but frost bolt and fire ball are similar in the sense that you spam it to fish for procs of your harder hitting spells.
Black arrow and Flame shock are similar in the sense they are a dot that give you a free proc of a high priority attack.
Hammer of wrath and kill shot are finishers added to your rotation when your targets at low health.

You guys need to learn patterns and how things work maybe you could actually look at a tomato and an apple and say “Yes Brig, they’re both fruits.” instead of arguing with me weather they both belong in a in a god damn chili recipe.

While I agree with this, it seems easy to overstate the place of particular skills, let alone their names, in those gameplay loops.

  • Maintain your infinitely maintainable DoT, in this case by using either of your two basic spenders, one ST and one MT. (Until the extra initial tick was removed, the MT applying this DoT meant tab-targeting even in very low-count was not worthwhile, making this even more trivial.)
  • Set your passive bonus to AoE mode (incendiary) for AoE or DoT mode (Poisoned) for low/ungrouped-target-count situations, or dismiss pet and leave it gone (Lone Wolf), or be ready to preposition for Focus generation via bigger-more-efficient-but-immobile-generator (Focusing Shot).
  • Roughly half-minute CD ticks (or the initial trapping) proc 2 rotational CD (Explosive Shot) free bonus charges.
  • (Eventually removed via QoL changes) Don’t use rotational CDs back to back, as not to override them beyond the pandemic margin.
  • Unload Thrill of the Hunt procs quickly (scarcely affects gameplay) / drop Dire Beast nearly on CD, or pair Cobra (effectively, Steady) Shots for Steady Focus.
  • Fill with AMoC or Stampede; Power Shot, Glaive Toss, or Barrage (careful not to starve ES/BA).

Most of those elements came from Hunter-wide talents. By the end, the only truly unique matters relative to its competing specs were…

  1. Serpent Sting maintenance, seen on any other DoT class but in this case with less DoTing necessary and less synergy or interaction than typical for most DoT classes (think Agony builders, Immolate buffing other actions, etc.), and
  2. spending 24-30s skills allows you to spend bonus charges, which you must spend before you’d potentially proc more and thereby waste them (still seen on the MM variant of Lock and Load, and perhaps more riskily or meaningfully when in the context of Double Tap and an upcoming Rapid Fire, due to the Rapid-Aimed double-dip under LnL).

It flowed well. It worked. It was a good spec, my favorite at the time (apart from maybe Subtlety).

But it was hardly a deep one, even for its time, nor one whose playflows and aesthetic would somehow demand an entire modern spec (where most talent rows are actually spec specific, rather than specs merely slapping on a few core skills and their interplay atop an otherwise in-common class toolkit).

For that reason, if we were to reintroduce RSV, now, when specs can afford so much more depth, I’d certainly hope our goal wouldn’t be merely to reintroduce what was, but to take the best of its thematic trajectories and run with them.

To be clear, I don’t mention all this in order to demean or devalue a former favorite spec. I just feel that RSV sort of inherits many kinds of nostalgia simultaneously that together tend to mute any discussion of how its intents as best gleaned before could be better provided today, and I find that a shame.

I am generally in a minority in believing that specs should better leverage their talents, rather than more deeply connecting a relatively inflexible and sometime intrusive (see Rapid Fire in MM, Wildfire Bombs in SV) core with borrowed powers, that specs deserve greater available player-chosen breadth and depth, and that their identities should be better connected by the feeling behind the spec rather than by the particular core abilities through which that feeling is attempted. I don’t think my belief that RSV could be improved upon, deepened, and made more distinct, however, necessitates nearly so extreme a view, however.

Forgive me for the officiousness (as this was aimed at Llars), but I still don’t know what point you’ve even attempted to make.


apple=fruit. Tomato=berry. chili+tomato=ok chili+apple=?

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Good job buddy my point proven.

Was talking to Llars lol