No, but had paladin tanks reply to LF Tank and turns out they could tank. Just because you didn’t experience it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen or wasn’t possible.
Every dungeon I ran was a pug in Vanilla. I mean seriously… even with warriors people knew to wait for the tank to get aggro. “Wait for 3 sunders”… I’m sorry that you apparently ran with people who couldn’t be bothered to wait for aggro because… reasons… but I never encountered that problem in Vanilla.
I think the weapon does matter a lot to players. But the actual gameplay as you noted is also pretty integral to the class. I think the major thing is, it’s ranged combat but it isn’t a spell caster. I could envision a class or spec that say, uses chakrams as their main method for attacking instance and that would probably have some popularity to it depending on how it played.
I think that could bring it back to being more palpable for a lot of hunters potentially. Could sort of act like a call back to before MoP when they removed the melee weapon entirely?
Personally, I am not entirely sure which direction Blizz should take current SV in, but I do think maintaining the importance of the pet (but moving the focus generator to something else) and keeping the in and out playstyle would be a good start.
Lazy, I say this because this has always been the way wow is. Sure, there are people who play for fun. will not play the best of the best. But those people are the minority. I played BM as my secondary. People play BM because its easy managed, you are not hampered by movement, and played properly you can do consistent damage to the target. With the pet pass, BM is not in as bad as place as it was.
But for the other people, it would get to the place SV as melee is. There was a point were SV could hold its own. But because people hammered on it so much in the forums, people perceived it as a failure without even knowing how it played. Just as they do now.
80% I would say of WOW’s population will always play the best spec. Rather it be from a guide or the forums most will try to do that. The rest, like myself, play the way we want to play and say the hell with everything else.
Look at Moonkin right now people are flocking to it. High dps and easy to play.
Paladins didn’t tank in classic, and you trying to argue otherwise shows just how dishonest you are in these types of situations.
You’re right, it got better with 9.0.5. Fun fact, more than 1/3rd of hunters were playing BM even before the 9.0.5 buffs to BM. Now I agree as far as other classes, the data seems to show the majority of them will play the best of their specs when given multiple dps specs. Hunters seem to not follow that trend, from what the data offers us.
Hunter Population - Google Sheets
As you can see, even back in janruary nearly 40% of hunters were.
Right… I’m dishonest because I had a different experience than you, and had paladins tank some of the dungeons I ran…
The most played spec will of course be whatever is meta. I’m not refuting that. But a spec can still be popular even when it isn’t meta. You just listed some of the reasons why BM is popular despite not being meta.
We know with hunters at least that over a third from BM alone do not. We have about another 5% from Survival that also clearly will play what they like.
This is using data that we have access to involving covenant interactions, so we know it isn’t just hard core or casuals or anything like that.
So I find the assertion that 80% of players adhere only to the meta to be false. Is it the majority of players? Absolutely. Do I think it’s that much? No, because looking at data for hunters I can already see at least for our class that isn’t true, and I have little reason to suspect that is true for all of the other classes.
Are you serious? How long will you continue to ignore what people are saying?
Just because an ability has a certain name doesn’t mean that it’s the same ability as it was in the past. And it certainly doesn’t mean that you could pick it and still achieve something that is even remotely close to the playstyle we got from RSV prior to Legion.
As for that last part…
Rapid Fire in WoD:
Rapid Fire
- Level 54 Marksmanship hunter ability
- 2 min cooldown
- Instant cast
- Increases haste by 40% for 15 sec.
Rapid Fire now:
Rapid Fire
- Level 20 Marksmanship hunter ability
- 40 yd range
- 20 sec cooldown
- Channeled
- Requires Ranged Weapon
- Shoot a stream of 7 shots at your target over 2 sec, dealing a total of (242% of Attack Power) Physical damage.
- Usable while moving.
- Rank 2: Each shot of Rapid Fire now generates 1 Focus.
Get it in your head, we don’t want any ability with the same name as it held in the past. We want a set of abilities that amount to a playstyle which is similar to what we could get from RSV prior to Legion.
Since when am I “whining” about MSV?
I’m curious as to find out what’s your definition of the word.
And, like before, what does this have to do with what you quoted? How is this relevant to the argument?
If by this, you mean that the majority of it’s focus was on providing us with ways to allow us to get back to range or to better defend ourselves in specific scenarios, I agree.
If not, you’re wrong. It certainly did not have a design that promoted the idea of us intentionally seeking out melee-range.
They didn’t add Hand of Reckoning until WotLK. Also, TBC had the famous Illidan encounter that mandated being block capped, something paladins could not do. They were AoE tanks only in TBC.
Before Hand of Reckoning they had a different taunt. IIRC it was called Righteous Defence and taunted 3 targets at once.
But yes, I think from a mitigation standpoint Prot Paladins in BC were lacking.
From what I’ve read and been told, I’ve the notion that it was pretty much a “must do” kind of thing, having the Tank build Aggro. DPS jumping ahead was a less forgiving kind of mistake. I’ve also heard stories of BM pets stepping into the Tanking job.
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/vTPu8p2eqVBRuv6Kzx7Jrk
-10% DPS. That’s roughly the difference between MM and the lowest DPS spec in the game atm.
But, you know, keep spewing nonsense. Definitely helping your point.
And yet you’ve spent this entire thread trying to prove that RSV should never have existed as a ranged spec, that it was merged into MM and thus doesn’t need to or deserve to exist. So forgive me if I press X to doubt your sincerity here.
Except, you know, the cast time and the fact that you only get about 1.5 procs per minute instead of ~3-5, and the fact that it has twice the base cooldown to boot.
Honestly, you’re not even trying here. That’s like arguing that Raptor Strike would feel the same if it had a 2.5s cast time and a 15s CD.
Yes, exactly. The only time melee SV was even remotely a thing was when people literally didn’t know better, didn’t have the resources to understand how bad it was. Now that those resources exist, MSV does not exist in Classic. Weird that that works, huh?
If MSV was as much a thing in vanilla as you claim, as much a design intent as you claim, surely it would have presence in Classic as well, no?
I mean, sure…after making it entirely non-viable for literally a decade. You’re cherrypicking like crazy here.
No, they had a threat aura. It was called Righteous Fury. It had no taunt involved, it simply amplified all threat generated (and could be cast by any of the 3 specs. I saw hpallies using it on occasion to ranged-tank on some boss fights). Righteous Fury was added in vanilla, though, and existed through WoD.
You regurgitated exactly what I just said in your own words and you’re still mad?
You don’t want an ability with the same name as in the past you want a set of abilities that is similar to rsv prior to legion am I getting that right? Get it into your head. Go marks, go venthyr there’s your similar build.
An ability that can randomly proc your hard hitting short cd bread and butter spell? Check.
A 30 second dot that can trigger and proc your hard hitting ability? Check.
The fantasy of applying a bomb to one of your arrows exploding on your target? Check.
Fundamentally Rapid fire on a 2 min cd was an ability that made you shoot faster. Now rapid fire is an ability that makes you shoot fast. Thematically its still rapid fire I’m sorry they didn’t change it to Rootie Tootie 7 Shootie.
That’s exactly what I meant it was a way to fight back in Melee. Shadow was a way for priests to do damage. Prot pallys was a way to take in a lot of damage without dying.
They elaborated and fleshed those specs out just how they did to survival.
So to you meta min maxxing matters and you wouldn’t play rsv if it wasn’t top dps?
And yet you’ve spent this entire thread trying to prove that MSV should never have existed as a Melee spec, that it doesn’t need to or deserve to exist. So forgive me if I press X to doubt your sincerity here.
Aimed shot is a 12 sec cd with 2 charges roughly making you cast it as often as you would explosive shot. Also if you get 1 lnl proc every 1.5 minutes try right clicking your target.
Lots of other builds that were played in vanilla don’t have any presence in classic now. And look what has presence now and for the last few years.
So are you bud. Its a viable spec. Needs tuning but viable and 100% fits the hunter fantasy.
You realize it’s not binary, right? 10% is a very large difference. BM is behind by only a couple percent. If RSV was as far behind as MSV currently is, it’s be difficult to justify playing it, yes. If it were only roughly as far behind as BM, I’d be all over it, even if it’s not “top DPS”.
…you know that charges cooldown sequentially, right? 12s recharge means you cast it on average every 12s, not every 6s. If you cast both charges back-to-back, you don’t get two charges back 12s later, you get one charge back 12s later, and the second one 24s later. And if you doubt that, go throw on a green bow, grab a stop watch, and test it yourself against a target dummy. It’s trivially easy to demonstrate.
It’s literally mathematical, you buffoon. 8% proc on auto-attacks, 3.0s base auto-attack interval. That’s an average interval, before haste, of 37.5s, or 1.6 per minute. And haste is very much not a priority stat for MM, so we avoid stacking much of it.
Ya. Lots of other terrible specs that would never have been played if people knew better. The only fundamental difference between classic and vanilla circa 2004 is that people today know better, and have the resources to test it. Result is that ridiculous and bad specs like melee survival stay in the trash can where they belong.
I mean, you’re right that it’s undertuned. It definitely doesn’t fit the hunter fantasy, though. Hasn’t since the beginning. Part of the point of dredging up that manual page is that it’s definitive proof that the hunter “fantasy”, the vision for the class, has been a ranged DPS from before the game even released. This melee tack-on makes exactly as much sense as a healing spec for hunters would.
Just went on warcraft logs and looked at your best parse on hungering devourer. In your 6 min 42 second kill you casted a total of 60 aimed shots. Idk how to math but my calculator said that’s one aimed shot every 6.7 seconds. If we subract your 12 lnl procs thats one aimed shot every 8.3 seconds. Oh wait 12 lnl procs? How did you manage that?? Thats one lnl proc every 33.5 seconds?? Roughly the cd of black arrow which would proc around 1 lnl at a time.
Marks playstyle is almost identical to what rsv was. It’s just different icons.
I’m sorry, I was having trouble taking you seriously before, but this cements it really. You can’t look at what rapid fire used to be and what it is now and go “yep, basically the same.” You either have to be trolling, or so desperate for your narrative to be right that you’d call obvious differences, clear similarities just to keep that narrative going.
I was talking about the aesthetic of rapid fire. Surprised this is what you latched on lmao.
I would say that too if I was trying to make stuff up to prove my point even though the evidence clearly says otherwise.
I think a lot of players wont admit they were right or wrong about it either.
Why was it a failure? Because you didn’t like it?
SV needs help, but its hardly a failure. Its a lot of un to play in fact, its just too weak.
Why does any class need three specs that play in the same way just with variations on the names of the skills?
But then im still one that thinks outlaw rogues should have been a ranged class and that disc priests should have a true DPS option so, meh.
So… Lets rename volley we no longer have to channel it.
Aspect of the cheetah is no longer a permanent buff and it should be changed!
We can cast Steady shot while moving its a different ability!