but even before borrowed power we had to relearn our classes every expansion , it was/is what keeps things fresh .
Borrowed power should of been the norm right from the start
2 Likes
It was never this extreme. I don’t need fresh every two years. Destro has been the same core since MoP and I still have fun with it.
If anything they’ve just taken away from it for no reason.
Yep, that’s pretty much it.
Blizzard’s current issue at the moment though is that their base classes/specs aren’t engaging enough to standalone by themselves. If they were we wouldn’t care about losing the powers each expansion because the classes would be sufficient without them.
But pre-artifact legion, bfa release, and shadowlands alpha have all shown us that is not the case.
I truly wish Blizzard would look at that first before their borrowed powers systems instead of trying to use them as bandaid fixes.
5 Likes
Quite simply because they want us to regrind variations of the same abilities every xpac
This team awards nothing for max level ,which used to be a major dopamine event with a reward of new abilities
The current B team has created long grinds that never existed before under the founders that had the huge subs
The current B team is resigned to lower subs and sells gold in the cash shop so they care about /timeplayed over anything, a direct correlation to higher cash shop micros
Fun isn’t the goal of the current lower tier devs, only stats for highest micros and retention mixed with a general negative attitude towards the designs of the founders that built the brand to success
These are the stewards of the slow death and the best devs have bailed
Wow is less fun because of it
3 Likes
Disagree, it’s better than ever. Sorry you don’t feel the same, but how would you know? You don’t play it.
Same. However, I feel that part of the problem is the philosophy of utilizing the “borrowed power” systems as “features” and selling points of the expansion.
If they had “actual” strong features, I think the borrowed systems could have a lesser impact on class sustainability and actually leave room for classes to stand alone without them.
I know what I am saying isn’t a cake walk, but it could be a step in the right direction, in order to keep the systems while at least attempting to prevent gimping classes when those systems aren’t in place.
2 Likes
Yeah, that is a good point. Having the borrowed power systems trying to be the defining part of the expansion to overshadow the lack of large unique features added to an expansion could be something they are intentionally doing?
That being said we are at least getting Torghast in Shadowlands which will be a nice change of pace.
2 Likes
Lets be honest, they can barely keep things relevant between patches, let alone create something that is the fountain to the game. Borrowed power is just to easy for them. They create a player experience around a gimmick then hit reset. Most people they are targeting dont care as long as they get cool mounts/pets/toys/mog that doesnt come from the cash shop.
2 Likes
I want to thank you guys for explain to me more about this problem .
This is all unsubstantiated opinion that frankly does nothing to help push the discussion with either side.
From a business perspective, it’s asinine to think they are “resigned” to lower subs. That’s just not how a successful business operates. Period.
We have so little information on the inner workings that none of the things you stated can truly be proved without jumping major oceans of biased conclusions.
I know and lament the many people that have left Blizzard (Chris and GC my top two), but that’s just part of the cycle of life. There are still A LOT of people there that have been part of wow since the “successful years” or “glory subs age”.
J Allen, Ion, Fitch, Kaplan, Afrasiabi, Holinka are all OG veterans. They aren’t “new kids” to the franchise.
I think as long as we (the players) don’t have any information on the active subscriber count, and detailed gross margins of the franchise, we can’t make any assumptions of what their purpose is behind their design philosophy.
I think you design with the customer in mind (at least attempt to). The issue is whether or not we have a clear understanding of what or who that customer ultimately is. GD isn’t a representation of the wow population by any means.
2 Likes
I used to. But then I kept getting trolled and would keep making the mistake of responding to the trolls and inevitablly get myself suspended. So I try not to do it as much anymore 
I think they’re really scared. They’re convinced this is what people want and it’s the only way they can keep people playing. Creating these leveling systems on top of the current one(which btw is completely obsolete so why even have it).
It has to be a grind that keeps you playing. You have to somehow “progress” your character(like leveling but more gated) or you won’t be playing at all.
In a way it reminds me of fps games from early/mid 90’s. They had a scoreboard. That was it. Nowadays they have ladders and EXPERIENCE GRINDS… apparently this is what people want. I guess just playing a game isn’t enough, the players have to be engaged and be sure they’re not just playing for fun but to grind something.
1 Like
Not entirely sure what this means…
The reason it’s called “borrowed power” is because it’s borrowed. At a certain point you have to give it back. If you didn’t end up giving it back, it wouldn’t be borrowed.
Edit: Oh, I think I realized what you were trying to say. “Why remove borrowed power as a system?”
Why should characters be reliant on someone else’s power? Borrowed power is a cop-out excuse to not take the time to actually design classes properly.
2 Likes
So people don’t want to be depended on a system of power? We might as well be throwing bones and using leather shields.
Im not going to dig through every interview Ion did but i do remember around the first few months of bfa during the supposed mass exodus, Ion said something about these systems being easier to balance without the worry of long term gameplay effects. Pretty much why so many systems (like glyphs) and abilities got pruned. He even admitted they went too far.
I never needed a grind to have fun. I suffered through it so I could get to the point where I could have fun.
Getting my pvp gear was a chore. Only once I got it could I then have fun.
4 Likes
That is kind of the thing. This game was successful long before these endless grinds that started in legion.
Were raid loggers a thing? Of course, but even Blizzard admitted themselves that most players dont raid past lfr.
It just feels like the failure of WoD has forever haunted them or something, so they trying to overcompensate instead of looking to MoP and prior to see why those worked during the times they did. They dont even understand why legion got the activity numbers it did since they seem to think that engagement numbers determines success.
4 Likes
Apparently neither do you. 100% Legion activity was nostalgia. Illidan was a hook, line and sinker. That’s the hard truth. Legion was an ok expansion, I’ll go as far as to say it was good. It wasn’t a 10/10 as people make it to be.
What’s more, as a community we often fail to realize the outside factors that come into play, not saying you are wrong, but internet gamers are simply not the same as the ones that existed back in Wrath-Mop. That’s just fact. The world has dramatically changed and so has the new generation of players.
Is it so hard to imagine they are trying to adapt the game to the new demands and that comes at the cost of old players not having a place in said change unless they too adapt?
Raid loggers weren’t a thing back in the beginning… neither was Youtube. Or Social Media. It is what it is, and the way to keep the game alive, for better or worse is forward and not continuing to bang our heads against the wall asking for the past to be relived over and over.
That’s what I’m saying too. When I enjoyed fps the most it was just hopping onto a server and frag away. Didn’t care about some “leveling” system or anything like that. Games have changed a lot however and I think blizzard is just trying to keep up but often they’re going way too far. BfA is just riddled with questionable desicions.
2 Likes
Ok, so for people saying we have to work for the powers, how did wow survive when borrowed powers weren’t a thing?
I understand ability bloat can be a problem if they keep adding on top of it. But what I see right now is them taking away abilities then adding it back in the next expansion.
Changes I see are, there is no key defining expac seller anymore
TBC - blood elves, and dranei horde paladins and alliance shaman (ok huge deal)
Wrath - death knights new class
Cataclysm - Azeroth reshuffled and reworked.
MOP- new race new class monk
Wod - ???
Legion - new class
Bfa- ???
SL - ???
2 Likes