Retribution was absolutely more complex then, with judgement being necessary within a certain time frame, as opposed to at any time now
No it really wasn’t.
You didn’t sit there doing nothing with holy power capped if for some reason your judgement wasn’t on the target and the CD wasn’t almost over. You still wanted to spend. Especially if builders were available to use, if builders were on CD then it might change depending on how long until you can use judgement vs builders.
The only change would be when you used judgement in the opener. This doesn’t make it more complex than it is today.
Well it’s an easy spec in either case, but imho having to factor in the judgement window was more complex than not having to
The point is…
Ret is clearly more complex than it was in legion, BFA or in SL.
It’s getting more complex not easier as the poster above claimed.
You take one timer away then add several more timers, on top of 4-6 additional abilities and make our damage dependent on mob position then claim this is easier?
It’s unbelievable… Really.
Yes this 12-14 button rotation is much easier than the… what… 7 (not sure) in legion? Ret is at least 30 binds now and can go a bit higher depending on build.
If you want to say other specs are more complex… Fine.
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I think it’s less complex, mainly because of the judgement window previously and also WoA was a little more awkward to fit in because you had to be at 0 holy power instead of 0, 1 or 2. Right now it’s mostly muscle memory and reacting to Art of War
But to me, it’s like saying 4 grains of sand is heavy because there used to be only 3. Ret hasn’t been complex for years if ever, nor is it now. With the problems defensively ret has–and the nerf to our mobility compared to SL with conduits (I think it’s fine we are slow in general, but going from SL to this is pretty bad), it shocks my conscience that ret’s rotation is an issue on the forums.
If anything I would have liked even more spice in the talents than we got. An active ability that wasn’t so boring like Final Reckoning or Divine Toll. Stuff like Execution Sentence is cool because it actually changes the rotation, but too bad it isn’t viable rn anyway
A revamp is definitely something that needs to be considered, but half the problem i believe is all the passive % buffs that are imbedded in the tree: passive talents, nodes AND CD’s AND end tier talents involves percentage boosts to some degree. I think there lies the heart of the problem.
blizzard needs to make a baseline build that works for paladins period, then the talent tree can enhance them, then the specialization trees can take the baseline build towards the niche ends; each paladin is dealing damage, healing and being tanky all at the same time; its up to the devs to redesign the talents to make it so its not so dependant on scaling of states( or at least not so its weak at low ilvl and op at high end), w/e boosts are static, so there isnt so many wanky, wonky stacking of effects to create obsene outcomes.
You’ll never see any mythic + on any of my characters. I only pvp.
And you think that qualifies you to speak on Ret’s PvE issues because… why, exactly?
You clearly have no actual relevant experience to what Ret’s issues are since PvP is a vastly different game than PvE, but it also sounds like you’re playing with worse/subpar players.
And this confirms that you’re playing with undergeared or subpar players and it’s inflating your metrics, making you think the spec is in a good place PvE & design wise, but it isn’t.
But you also clearly don’t actually PvE and have nothing relevant to offer for discussion and feedback so maybe just read until you decide to do some actual endgame content.
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WoA being better makes it harder to use…
Muscle memory reacting to art of war…
/sigh
Please tell me you have achieved at least a few 90%+ parses on heroic+ content when it was the end game without being over geared. Please tell me you’ve pushed keys to be on the cutting edge of Rets.
Of course in order to compare you would need to do this on a few other toons at the same time. You’re making these sweeping statements but offer no evidence as to why it’s true.
Are you the mage called Vuunn? Is this the same person?
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You are literally lying. You are commenting on bad faith why even come here when everyone here plays the spec you cannot200k tv, people dont even use tv anymore I ask again why come here? Did u get killed by a random ret because u dont respect wings? Go complain to the pvp forums and post your 200k tv you liar.
This is so suspect, is it not?!
Does every spec have gatekeepers who don’t even seem to engage with the spec in content beyond entry level?
Does every spec have people that “only pvp” but still comment on performance outside that mode?
Not to go super tinfoil but sometimes it really feels like there’s bad actors who are trying to hinder any meaningful conversation from occurring. I mean, look up a bit, there’s a guy who was arguing that Judgment wasn’t “holy colossus smash” in Legion, when you can simply look that information up. Of course they are posting on an alt. Is this all just bait?
Anyways, I eagerly await what changes may come in the future. I like personally like having a lot of buttons, but I’m more than happy if a spec can accommodate simpler builds for those that like them. We need flexibility and meaningful design. Get rid of the chip damage, get rid of some of the many non-deterministic talents we have and replace them with reliable synergies that we can play around, build around etc.
Every shuffle run I get a person saying "ur random ret burst damn braindead ". They see me press gcd after gcd to set up a couple “big” hits and then complain when they die. The community perception of ret is very warped and I believe many of the devs in charge of ret believe this garbage too. I am probably done with the game I cannot find anything fun to do. Pvp in 9.2.5 wasnt as bad as it is now and clearly blizzard doesnt care. Whatever
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It’s truly a weird thing on the internet. It’s this weird idea that you cannot be “better than me (my class).”
If paladins got a good revamp, became more modernized and became the new standard of what a class should be, you’d think that would just be a better situation for the overall game, lol.
We’d take a second look at all classes and see what could improve… ¯\ _ ( ツ)_/¯
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As a full time retboob on my main since WotLK, I can say that all of the current abilities and utilities for ret are useful, and I can’t imagine playing ret without being able to BoP, Freedom, BoS or heal myself or others. In the last few xpacs, those utilities have not diminished or retracted from my dps. This xpac does feel different in that when I use them now, my dps is sub-par. In my opinion, it just feels bad now even when I still do pull off the top slot on charts. The way it plays now encourages rets to ignore those utilities and attempt getting the numbers back up. The wise pally still uses them, and accepts that the top dps slot probably won’t be yours, but you’ll kill the boss, time the dungeon, or win the arena match because of those utilities.
You’re arguing with a troll that hasn’t pushed past M8.
To be fair though Ret hasn’t adhered to it’s class identity for years now, at least since Legion.
Unless of course slot machine RNG nuke is the paladin class identity.
I’d be happy with just not having a toxic spec that uses defensives and utility as dps cooldowns, actually provides group utility, and doesn’t actively want their party to fail in order to deal competitive damage.
Tbf 5 HP WoA wasn’t good design and 3 is much better.
It’s not that it is was harder to use as the person seemed to imply, but simply that it was generally not best to optimise it so you would be more likely to waste potential HP generation from the ability.
It makes a bit more sense in regards to SL/DF where due to Of Dusk and Dawn encourages you to cycle to 0 HP, but typically speaking the natural rotation doesn’t drop to 0 very often, and it definitely wasn’t true back in Legion design.
TL:DR - a full charge of HP is worse to optimise and often results in either wasted HP generation or abilities being delayed longer than they should naturally.
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I’ve long since adapted to WoA giving just 3 hopo. What bothers me more is that 45s cooldown which, like other cooldowns, does not match the usual one or two minute cooldowns. Should be 30s again like Legion. Adjust damage accordingly.
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On the topic of HP, the only thing I’d do would be to add an option/talent that let us go to 6. This would indirectly buff Holy Avenger and make it less awkard with abilities that generates 2 HP.
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While I don’t entirely agree…
Thoughtful, logical and reasoned post.
Good job!
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Mileage may vary, for someone like myself it was quite noticeable as I’m fairly OC when it comes to class rotations for some reason lol.
It’s why I couldn’t bring myself to play Master of Elements/Icefury Elemental Shaman, the spec just trips over itself so often and I hated wasting suboptimal procs or not spending Lava Surge quick enough 
Like, I know 5 HP is simply more generation than 3 so it’s a buff. But my brain wouldn’t just be llike “ok as long as we are still generating 3+ we are better off” lol.