The vast majority dont though, so if even 2-3 people are find a heroic dungeon difficult it will still be easily completed.
Sure you didnât 
Just like how you seem to think people shouldnât improve at that level because âthey dont have toâ.
people should improve if they want to improve, forcing it upon people in a game is toxic and malicious. Its up to you to choose who you play with not how others play.
and this mindset if why the pugging scene is why itâs as horrible as it is now. And no Iâm not forcing people anything. I have point out merit on doing thing to improve the group while you on the other hand wants to keep those players making the same mistakes over and over again simply because you probably want them to be as lazy as you are.
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making an active choice to avoid improving is more toxic than the guy suggesting someone should improve. one guy is being selfish and thinking of themselves and ruining entire pugs the other guy is giving valid criticism.
being bad is fine, being purposefully bad is selfish and toxic.
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Itâs not remotely. Youâll notice a massive part of that side of the conversation is carried by a single person for vast swathes of the thread. Itâs amazing how long a single person will continue to argue that point.
The only people that actually donât dps in dungeons in the game are very clear beginners, or people who announce themselves at the beginning of dungeons as if anyone else should give a crap about their point of view.
Thatâs the same as any thread.
Youâre right in that itâs definitely not a majority, nobody takes pride in not dpsâing as a healer in the actual game, but itâs like having a DPS who doesnât kick. Most of the time itâs not an active playstyle choice, theyâre just not good.
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tbh I found more dps who doesnât kick than healers who doesnât dps ingame
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Lol yeah, by an order of magnitude. The other day I was gearing a new tank in uldaman⊠I ran the dungeon about 5-6 times⊠by the end of it I realised I had literally not seen another interrupt from someone else throughout all 5 runs.
Looked at interrupts in details⊠I crap you not, I had 87 interrupts, and the next highest count from all 5 dungeons overall was⊠2. TWO. That does not even count the stuns and ccs to interrupt hail of stone, which even on normal can kill people who arenât geared quite easily in big pulls⊠I garuntee that number wasnât higher than 2 either.
This game simply does not do a good enough job of teaching people to use interrupts.
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I mean letâs be honest the game is doing such a bad job at preparing players to do end game. Thatâs why itâs in the state it is in where the good player keeps getting better and the bad player keeps getting worst. Not sure how blizz can fix it really.
My brother in Christ, weâre talking about Retail.
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The start is actually punishing the lack of correct play while leveling.
Their idea of making stuff harder is double the mobâs hp and damage, making things take twice as long but not changing difficulty at all. If quest mobs had a casted ability that did 80% of your hp if not interrupted, people would very quickly learn to interrupt.
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Been running this new Uldaman dungeons several times and it always looks like the group is getting wiped while the tank pretty much is always topped.
It is definitely ok as mobs and bosses are dieing but it just seems like healers are struggling to keep the group alive and barely making it through with their mana.
Not sure about other ppl experiences but my experiences shows that the 40% increased damage from mobs has put a lot of pressure on healing . This is gonna rebound badly in DF
The 40% hp/damage isnât in Uldaman or live at all?
The reason that parties look like they are âgetting wipedâ is because almost nobody moves to line of sight the mobs free-casting on them, and almost nobody stuns or ccs the mobs free-casting hail of stone. The amount of avoidable damage people are taking in that dungeon currently is stupendously high.
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I am glad Blizzard set the record straight, that they want healers to heal and they design the game that way.
It is awful that people demand the healers do stuff Blizzard explicitly says they are not meant to do.
The logic that healers should DPS is like giving every melee class a healing spell that can not be used on themselves, only other people, and demanding they heal others when not in melee range.
I guess it comes from lazy DPS players who want the healers to do their work for them. Luckily, Blizzard made it clear - healers are meant to heal.
really? every run Iâve been through has been smooth as hell.
Thatâs true. That is a fundamental difference. Itâs an important one to understand too since itâs extremely relevant to the conversation. The important thing to note is that every 1.0s (or however long your GCD is) youâre going to spend a GCD whether you like it or not. Itâs in your vested interest and the interest on the group that you make sure itâs spent on something good.
Yes they did. I was assuming that you didnât have any abilities that worked with overhealing. If you do then you do and your behavior will change in response to your abilities. But assuming you donât have any such abilities, then overhealing doesnât do anything.
Not quite. If Iâm at 30% health and something does 30% damage to me, I die. If before I take that hot my healer heals me up to 60%, then that same 30% hit wonât kill me. The healer saved my life. If I get overhealed though, my health doesnât change. I was at 100% before and Iâm at 100% after.
Which is unfortunate. I get annoyed with people who treat logs as a scoreboard in inappropriate contexts as well. Itâs definitely possible for people to misapply axioms like this. When I mentor my guildies, I definitely make an effort to guide them down the right path when I teach them. Itâs harder in a context like this where Iâm only a passing ship in the night but I try to convey the spirit of the idea as much as I can. Iâm not a fan of people using good wisdom in a bad way either.
I guess the way I would put it is similar to what I said earlier. âDoing nothingâ on its own isnât inherently good or bad⊠but every GCD has opportunity costs. That opportunity cost can make the same action thatâs good in one scenario be bad in another. I actually do understand the concern that some players need an extra GCD in order to evaluate healer situations. Unlike DPS whose decision making is relatively static, healer decisions are extremely dependent on the content. So especially for newer players, some extra hesitation doesnât surprise me.
Thatâs one of the reasons I donât think itâs appropriate to ream out a healer in a +4 for not having 100% uptime. Thatâs in addition to the fact that reaming out any of your teammates is usually inappropriate. Iâve never been a fan of people using âjust being honestâ as an excuse to be rude or mean. Even in situations where you should offer someone advice on correcting their play⊠thatâs not a blank check to be as rude as you please about it.
Putting that all aside⊠what the extra GCD to assess the situation means is that there is an extra cost associated with some of your actions that other healers donât have to pay. Healers in the MDI need to assess situations as well, except is doesnât cost them a GCD to do it. They do the same thing but pay a smaller cost for it. Thatâs the sort of thing that can only happen when you develop your skill as a player, no gear can do that. Better healers find ways to cut costs and donât require an empty GCD to assess, they can do it at the same time they do damage. If you need that GCD to assess then of course itâs good to take it when appropriate, but improvement-minded players shouldnât aim to languish there and will want to develop their skills such that they donât need that empty GCD anymore.
So there are varying degrees of good here. Itâs not a binary good vs. bad. Doing damage is more good than an empty GCD. Youâre right that itâs probably not going to be the one thing that makes or breaks your key. But it does contribute to widening the margin of error. Iâm doing a lot of things to widen the margin of error over the course of a key. Interrupts, defensives, routing⊠the works. None of it individually is a big deal but when taken as a sum then Iâve made the margin quite wide indeed. I canât control the play quality of my other teammates but if I make the margin as wide as possible, I make their job easier. It enables me to complete the same content even with teammates who donât play as well. And if I do all that but my teammates are also playing well and widening the margin every chance they get⊠well now weâre cooking with gas as they say. Thatâs how 20+ keys get timed. Itâs not necessary at lower keys, but whatâs good play in a +20 is good in +4. Personally I find it difficult to âturn offâ my good play habits so I simply do so in every content I do whether I think itâs required or not. For newer players, I think that +4s are a better environment to safely practice those skills than a +20 and itâs a skill theyâll need by the time they get there so they might as well start on it early. If youâre not intended to go that high then⊠yeah youâre right I donât see a need for you to learn it.
Thatâs definitely true. Dying probably being chief among them.
This thread seems to have moved on quite a bit without me including my name being directly mentioned more than a few times. Iâll⊠address that when Iâm more awake.
Either you didnât read the actual article, or you wildly misunderstood it.
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I think thatâs (running dungeons blind for the first time) fine actually. You only get one first run of a dungeon and I donât see a reason to spoil it for yourself. Weâve mostly been talking about M+ though which is by definition content youâve been running week to week and have seen many times before. By that time it would definitely pay to research the dungeon a bit and even if you donât, repeated runs will teach you the damage profile eventually.
If thatâs what you think then I canât really change your mind. Though I would appreciate it if you didnât try to read my mind, especially when you do so incorrectly. Iâm not lying to you. Why would I do that? Why would I deliberately misrepresent my own opinions?
⊠Neither do I.
Rest assured, I donât have some master plan to make life for novice healers miserable. Iâll talk about good play as I see it but I think that good play and harassment of other players are two different topics. Using the former as a shield for the latter is not something I respect. I donât want to run with good players if theyâre going to harass other group members. Iâve kicked people out of my guild for such behavior.
Yes this is exactly my stance. I draw a distinction between play that is required at a certain level, and play that is a good idea at a certain level. Healers doing damage is always good play. Itâs good play in a +30. Itâs good play in a +2. Itâs good play in a Normal. That doesnât mean itâs always required since it most cases, it isnât. Iâm not about to enforce MDI-level strats on every player who doth dare to heal. Contrary to what Sophiamk seems to believe of my motives, I would much prefer to encourage players of all skill levels to enjoy the game rather than chase them away. I frequently act in a mentor role in my guild so Iâm going to approach a lot of situations from that perspective, but I donât think that novice players are something to be berated.
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I like to suggest to learn to read