The goblins’ craftiness and greed make them masters of mercantilism. Reforging old pacts with their one-time allies, the goblins of the Bilgewater Cartel have been welcomed into the Horde
I am slightly annoyed that due to Blizzard wanting to keep the one to one faction comparison between Worgen/Goblins that they have retconned an old lore that I always found interesting, that the Bilgewater goblins WERE NOT the same ones who aided the Horde:
Trade Prince Steamwheedle was rumored to be making a mint from his alleged exclusivity contract with the Horde. Maldy thought if things went south for the Horde, the Alliance would turn on us next.
This was even reinforced in “Beyond the Dark Portal” book when the goblin trade was telling Terenas only one foolish goblin cartel had aided the Horde.
Wouldn’t be the first time these revised race blurbs contained blithe and bizarre errors/retcons. The blood elf one contradicted everything we’d ever been told about the race’s relationship with fel magic, and the Forsaken one characterized them as “tireless defenders of humanity” until enough people commented on the absurdity. I suppose unremedied errors stand as retcons.
According to the original Goblin page that was on the old World of Warcraft site (which you can find archived online), all the Goblin Cartels were aiding the Horde, not just the Steamweedle Cartel. The Steamweedle had an exclusive contract with the Horde, but they weren’t the only Cartel to aid them during the Second War.
The goblins’ remaining craftiness (coupled with undiminished natural greed) soon lifted the race to preeminence as masters of mercantilism. Prominent trade princes rose to power during the First War as the cleverest goblins took advantage of the strife. Great fortunes were amassed, and the Isle of Kezan became a hub for fleets of goblin trading ships. One of the more ambitious trade princes agreed to lend his cartel’s services to the Horde in the Second War. Following the Horde’s defeat, the goblins learned from that trade prince’s failed example, realizing that their profits could double if they weren’t stuck in a restrictive relationship.
And as mentioned “Trade Prince Steamwheedle was rumored to be making a mint from his alleged exclusivity contract with the Horde”
So saying they were “one time allies” is incorrect. the only one who could have that distinction would be Steamwheeddle. At best the Bilgewater had the same relations as the other current day goblins to the Old Horde, neutral but will help the highest bidder.
Edit: ah-ha, now I am 100% certain they never said all the goblins were allies with the Horde, this was from the old blurb:
Reforging old pacts with their colleagues’ one-time allies, the goblins of the Bilgewater Cartel have been welcomed into the Horde with open arms.
Taking the name blood elves – or sin’dorei in their own tongue –the people of Quel’Thalas sated their magical thirst for a time with demonic fel energies.
Seems like this was generally assumed/known since their inception…
That was kind of their whole thing in War3.
And the Warcraft RPG which expanded on what was said in War3.
And in TBC when we literally see Magisters in Silvermoon sucking fel out of fel crystals in the city.
Sure, you can say not every Blood Elf did this.
But it’s generally understood that this is what happened.
Iirc this referred to them prior to their Undeath not when they were actually Forsaken.
Which characterized it as if all Forsaken were once soldiers/warriors/knights of Lordaeron, which is why they changed it.
In War2 many of the Goblins were simply mercenaries, especially the ones that fought on Draenor post-Second War.
Not improbable to think that some of those mercenaries had ties to the Bilgewater.
All this really says is that the Steamwheedle exclusively aided the Horde due to a contract they made with them.
Other Goblin cartels didn’t have this same exclusivity contract, doesn’t mean they didn’t play both sides.
If it is a retcon is happened a long time ago, because the current WoW website says this about Goblins:
The goblins’ craftiness and greed make them masters of mercantilism. Reforging old pacts with their one-time allies, the goblins of the Bilgewater Cartel have been welcomed into the Horde.
The forum post you’re crying ‘retcon’ about literally just copy-pasted it from the Goblin page on WoW’s website, which has been up for a while.
That being said, these new pages were meant to recreate the information of the old one in a quick summarized way. They could just be referring to ‘Goblins’ in general, rather than specifically the Bilgewater, in this case.
Regardless, I doubt Blizzard cares or even realized they’ve contradicted themselves here. If it even is a contradiction.
They really haven’t retconned anything, all they did was give an extremely quick recap of the race within the faction as a whole, without going into details about different cartels or whatever.
Then this is a retcon that happened after Chronicles was released because even in Chronicles 1 mentions just the Steamweedle aiding the Horde.
Also this is just another reason why the current race page is inferior to the old ones. I get wanting to give a summary but at the same time the summary is wrong.
The most likely thing that happened here is that the people who wrote this stuff just wrote down whatever they remembered off-hand.
I doubt anyone sat down and put specific effort into ‘retconning’ this bit of lore.
The idea of anything being ‘canon’ or ‘non-canon’ in WoW is always straggling the line between the two.
Everything we think we know about the story is entirely assumptive, honestly.
Even if we’re given specific details about things, a couple weeks later most people have forgotten about it and it enters that weird ‘grey zone’ where we aren’t sure anymore.
You can still continue to believe that the Steamwheedle were the only Goblins to work for the Horde during the Second War or whatever, because it literally doesn’t make a difference anywhere ever.
Summary isn’t necessarily wrong if it’s talking about Goblins in a general sense.
They just don’t go into details about different cartels and their relationships with the Horde.
Yes. Both the blood elves’ companion lore in TBC and direct clarifications from the developers attest to the opposite. Chronicles 3 even retconned Kael’thas into the blood elves of Silvermoon’s focus villain over this distinction.
Even so, the prince’s relatively quick acceptance of dire measures (e.g., draining magic from demons) is by no means characteristic of blood elves in general. The blood elves of Outland have by now discovered Kael’thas’ agreement with Illidan, and they have for the most part become convinced of its necessity. Most blood elves still live on Azeroth, though. Few of these elves know of Kael’thas’ pact with Illidan, and many would be horrified if they discovered it. Draining magic from small mana-bearing vermin is a far cry from draining magic from demons.
How did the blood elven fel eye glint become so widespread? The Warcraft Encyclopedia suggests that Rommath only taught the blood elves of Azeroth about how to siphon arcane magic, as most of the populace would likely be “horrified” if they knew the true extent of Kael’s dealings with Illidan. The situation regarding blood elf eyes is, in fact, extremely similar to that of the green skin of orcs: just being around heavy use of fel magic turned the eyes of the blood elves green.
Kael’thas had embraced fel magic and become the Legion’s pawn. He was their prince no more. Word of this discovery reached Lor’themar Theron and the other ranking elves in Quel’Thalas. The news broke their hearts, but they came to a consensus. Kael’thas was lost. It was their duty to vanquish him and end his treachery.
Not really. Kael’thas called Vashj insane for suggesting he eat fel magic. Their blood mages brushed up against the warlock fantasy with the implication they were wielding infernal magics, not eating them. Kael crossing that line in TBC rotted his brain. Hopefully that magister up there broke the habit.
By you, maybe. I was always perplexed at how ornamental fel came across in the blood elf starting zones, with all the focus going to their addiction to the arcane and abuses of the Light; that’s why these questions were asked in the first place.
The exact quote was even more off the mark than I recalled. “As one of the undead Forsaken, you have been reanimated by dark magic. Though shunned by the living, you tirelessly strive to protect them.”
We have quests from TBC that have the Blood Elves, members of the Horde, actively seeking out sources of fel magic to siphon power from:
h-ttps://www.wowhead.com/quest=9366/in-need-of-felblood
The official World of Warcraft website during TBC also said this:
In the midst of the elves’ darkest hour came Kael’thas Sunstrider - the last of Quel’Thalas’ royal bloodline. Kael, as he was commonly known, knew that the remnant of his people would not long survive without the nourishing magics that once empowered them. Renaming his people blood elves, in honor of their fallen countrymen, he taught them how to tap into ambient mystical energies - even demonic energies - in order to sate their terrible thirst for magic.
Unfortunately, the blood elves’ practice of embracing demonic energies resulted in them being shunned by their former comrades in the Alliance. Thus, the remaining blood elves on Azeroth look desperately to the Horde to help them reach Outland, where they can reunite with Kael’thas and achieve the golden destiny he promised them.
The way they were initially characterized was that Belves tapped into any magical source that they wanted to, without caring all too much what that magical sources was or where it came from.
So they retconned a retcon, more like.
This quote pretty much reaffirms what I said:
Notice the wording ‘likely’ being used?
This would seem to imply that this is speculative.
This also serves as an explanation for how every Belf had green eyes, even the exceptions that didn’t siphon it. This doesn’t really prove that the Belves in Quel’thalas never used for siphoned fel magic to feed their addictions.
Embraced is different than simply siphoning to feed addiction.
The Blood Elves serving under Kael specifically gorged themselves on Fel to feed their addiction, which is very different than learning to ‘control their addictions’ like the Belves we see in the starting zone.
Iirc there’s literally a cutscene of him learning how to do it from Illidan in War3.
Initially he was hesitant, but he eventually gave-in once Illidan taught him.
How magic worked back in War3 worked different from how it does now.
Back in War3 there was no real distinction between Demon magic and regular magic, it was all considered the same thing. Simply wielding magic fire was enough to be associated with demons.
Hell, this lack of distinction carries up all the way until the release of Chronicles. We really didn’t know what the differences were between Arcane magic, Chaos magic, Fel magic etc. was outside of the original Warcraft RPG which was decanonized by the release of Vanilla.
Ornamental like… giant floating green crystals housing demons everywhere?
Warlocks out in the open with their demon minions?
I don’t really understand why this is such an alien concept to you. Fel and Blood Elves have been inexplicably linked concepts.
Even if Blizzard eventually went back and retconned it…
I wouldn’t necessarily think that retconning it back ruins anything, if anything it returns some of that edge that the Belves had previously.
Think this is referring to their allies within the Horde.
Another general statement about the race.
Or it could simply be referring to your character, the Hero of Azeroth, in general as someone who works tirelessly to save the world yet is hated by it for being undead.
It’s absolutely true. The Warcraft Encyclopedia released a mere two months before TBC; the blood elves still wore their funny night elf models in the older townhall article. Either Blizzard couldn’t keep their story straight even then, or revisions were made between alpha and release. I charitably presume the latter.
You’re getting lost in the sauce. Whether that guy or that one magister or loose ladies in Lor’themar’s boudoir dipped into the green stuff is immaterial. The point is that doing away with the only distinction between Kael’s faction and Silvermoon’s - that one group sated their arcane thirst with fel magic and the other, by and large, did not - is a reductive retcon that calls a lot of sources into question. Not least of all Blood of the Highborne.
It’s interesting that we both see apples and bowling balls here when the position you’re defending is that they’re the same thing.
My understanding was this: Kael’s felblood elves gorged themselves on demon blood and transformed into monsters; Kael’s Sunfury forces were too drunk on magic - fel and arcane - to question their mad leader; and Silvermoon’s elves, far removed from both, stuck to draining mana from artifacts and “small mana-bearing vermin,” because “draining magic from demons is by no means characteristic of blood elves in general.” This reading was corroborated by the lore until this new site’s blurb rewrote it.
At best, you’ve proven that it was only a retcon to a retcon of another retcon, itself colored by non-canon RPG bunk… My head hurts just thinking about the mess.
… he embraced fel magic to feed his addiction.
Kael’thas convinced Illidan to show him how to feed on fel energies. The prince proceeded cautiously, only drawing on small portions of the magic. Before long, he grew hopelessly addicted to it. The more he fed on the dark energy, the more it ate away at his mind, body, and soul. His reliance on fel magic frayed the bonds between him and his people.
Indeed. The fel crystals and even our characters’ fel eyes went completed unremarked upon in TBC; both were pure ornamentation as far as the text was concerned. To this day our only official word as to the crystals’ purpose is a behind-the-scenes dev interview that claims they were holding the kingdom’s structures together in lieu of the Sunwell.
Inexplicable is right. They could’ve attributed the fouled eyes to the Sunwell exploding and nothing would’ve changed about the playable blood elves’ arc in TBC. It began with managing their debilitating thirst for the arcane and ended with atonement for their crimes against the Light. Every time I level a baby blood elf I’m bemused at how superfluous the fel angle feels.
The Forsaken themselves would probably baulk at a categorization of “tireless protectors of the living,” but sure, let’s go with that.
So just ignore it then, alright.
Yeah, seems to be your go-to when someone brings up something you don’t agree with.
‘Doesn’t count’.
I don’t get why this is so hard for you to understand.
The Warcraft Encyclopedia article was meant to give a reason as to why every single Blood Elf had green eyes, not as a means of saying ‘well the Belves living in Silvermoon never touched any of that fel stuff.’ It’s just Blizzard’s excuse as to why Belves look different from Helves, even if not every single one of them siphoned fel.
It literally doesn’t disprove anything. At most, it just says that some Belves in Silvermoon were morally opposed to siphoning fel magic.
The specific example of the Belves disliking Kael’thas drawing magic from full-on demons refers to, once again, him gorging on fel. Not just using it as any other source of magic.
He and the Belves under him began specifically relying on mass amounts of fel to fuel their addiction, they gave-in to it.
Is incredibly vague. This could literally mean any form of magic.
Mana doesn’t mean arcane exclusively.
That being said, trying to distinguish between ‘fel’ and ‘arcane’ is difficult in going back to these old sources because, once again, there was little to no distinction as to what any of this means at this point in the lore.
Prior to Kael’thas ‘betraying’ the Elves of Quel’thalas there was no distinction.
They were literally all part of one singular group until he did that.
Lor’themar was a Regent Lord, running Quel’thalas in Kael’s place until the Belves were able to establish a permanent way to get to Outland.
Kael’thas was still the leader of the Belves, taught them how to siphon fel, etc. up until that point.
If you’re so hard-pressed to find some kind of morality break between these two groups, that would be it. Kael’s Elves gave-in to their addiction while the Belves in Quel’thalas worked to control their addictions.
You’re just wrong, sorry.
Belves in Quel’thalas used fel.
They just didn’t gorge themselves on it like the Belves on Outland, and didn’t start following the Legion.
That’s the only distinction.
Nope.
Belves on both Outland and Quel’thalas used whatever sources of power they could to sate their magic addiction.
Dunno why my sources don’t count anymore, and the literal NPCs in Silvermoon and visible demon minions and Warlocks are just… don’t mean anything either, I guess.
You’ve yet to provide anything that specifically states otherwise, so I’ve yet to see why I’m wrong in believing this was Blizz’s intention.
Yes, yes he did.
And my point of gorging yourself on fel magic (or demon magic in this case) still stands as being different than using fel as just another source to fulfill magic addiction, like they did with any other source of power in TBC.
So your idea is that… they just did that for the hell of it?
Those NPCs visibly feeding off those crystals is just a fluke.
Really, they just liked the color green, that’s the only reason Blizz sought to specifically create models for these giant demonic crystals all over Silvermoon.
I’m sure it’s a complete coincidence that Blizzard decided on giving Belves specifically green eyes in the same expansion where they doubled-down on making anything demonic-relate green.
Sure, lets just go with that.
Y’know, prior to TBC Belves were depicted with a variety of eye colors… It was TBC that specifically gave them those green eyes.
Your head would hurt a lot less if you just accepted that the Belves used any source of power they wanted, and that included demonic sources.
In general, they didn’t care. They used whatever.
Individuals could have been morally opposed to that, but that doesn’t mean every single Belf in Silvermoon or even the majority were morally opposed.
I’m sure nothing would change if they just said ‘they have green eyes just cause’.
Makes perfect sense.
Superfluous maybe, but it’s still there.
They just decided on saying that Belves pulled from whatever power sources they could, whether it be arcane critters, Naaru, or demonic crystals scattered around their major city.
What?
That’s literally just the interpretation of what they wrote there.
And I dunno, Hero of Azeroth seems to typically be protecting life, but if that bothers you idk what to say.
I mean, you’re kind of doing the same …
I agree with you in certain statements with the goblin lore, but not necessarily here on the Belf subject.
Much of what Elierra is stating is valid.
Kael’Thas got magic siphoning tactics from Illidan, who taught the method more in the regard to siphoning fel & demonic magics to sate ones-self — Kael’Thas then relayed the method & tactics to a master magus named Rommath and several of his magisters – However before Rommath taught it to their kin on Azeroth, it was watered down to some regard …
Kael’Thas had sent back Rommath & those several magisters with a message of hope for the blood elves remaining in Quel’Thalas: That one day Kael’thas would return to lead his people to paradise.
Rommath has made great progress in teaching the blood elves advanced techniques to manipulate arcane energies, although unlike their brethren on Outland, the blood elves of Azeroth employed this technique only on mana crystals and small mana-bearing vermin, and attributed these teachings to Kael’thas alone — Most were unaware of their prince’s alliance with Illidan.
The fel draining was present amongst some, but certainly not all let alone ‘most’ – especially within Quel’Thalas. Obviously in Outland you had those that were more questionable, like references as per above … However it seems the vast majority of those fel-utilisers we went toe-to-toe against anyway.
As stated by Elierra — With renewed purpose, the blood elves rebuilt the city of Silvermoon, though it is powered by volatile magics (Fel) to power the constructs & such. The fel-crystals were less so to ‘feed upon’ for the majority, and moreso as batteries for their kingdom …
In short — Essentially fel was to them, what nuclear power is to humans: The powerful means of energy to sustain power-usage within a society.
I still like to imagine that was bold faced Forsaken propaganda.
As they’ve been basically friendly neighbors with the Argents from day one. It really is just Stormwind and her puppets that keep getting their rears thrown screaming out’ve Lordaeron.
Like at a point I can’t help but wonder if it’s deliberate. Because it’s surreal watching the Death Knight Commander of SW forces in Andorhal curse the Forsaken for their use of necromancy.
Be like the Goblins decrying the Gnomes for using technological terror.
Generally speaking I just don’t know why it can’t be both a power source and a means to sate their addiction. The warlocks in Silvermoon alone are proof that some did this.
People try to make something of the quote explaining why all Belves had green eyes but that was an explanation needed to address the problem of all blood elves. It’s likely that some didn’t, naturally. But others obviously did. Trying to say that siphoning Fel was the defining difference between Kael’s Elves and the Silvermoon Elves just doesn’t seem to be the case at all. Especially considering that these two groups were one in the same at the beginning of TBC.
Her sources are valid, but nothing within them states that fel specifically wasn’t used by the Belves in Silvermoon.
I’m not ignoring anything, I’ve talked about the Warcraft Encyclopedia source and how it doesn’t discount the use of fel magic. All it does is state that fel wasn’t accepted by some Belves in Silvermoon. Along with offering a simple explanation as to why every Belf has green eyes, regardless of how they sated their magical addiction.
Again, this line doesn’t specify anything beyond that they tapped mana from small magical creatures. They never say these are solely vermin that are composed of arcane, light, or any other kind of magic.
That’s been my point this whole time.
However, I don’t think we can quantify whether it was the majority or not.
If the Belves used fel to sate their magic addiction, among other sources, that means the current WoW description of them isn’t wrong.
Which is how this argument began.
I know the source this comes from.
It comes from a behind-the-scenes DVD packaged with the collector’s edition for TBC. They were specifically talking about the design process of the city, not the lore specifically.
They were specifically talking about the architectural process of Silvermoon and why they designed it that way, this doesn’t discount the idea that Belves used these fel crystals to siphon magic from.
Evidenced by the literal NPCs in Silvermoon doing just that.
Not only that, but what about all the fel crystals scattered around Eversong that aren’t attached to buildings but have seating/pillows surrounding them? Is the implication there that Belves simply sit there and stare at them?
…
Obviously in Outland you had those that were more questionable, like references as per above … However it seems the vast majority of those fel-utilisers we went toe-to-toe against anyway.