I feel like I kind of already touched on at least why I think that is.
The pug scene, as toxic as it can be, provides more freedom and less responsibility to any given player. You can join a group, and leave whenever you want and it will not negatively impact you in any way (whether that’s leaving after a certain boss in raid, or leaving because the timer isn’t happening in M+, or some other reason). You can screw up and even if people get mad, the chances of you ever seeing them again are very low. You can do exactly what content you want and zero content you don’t care about. And if you’re leading, you aren’t obligated to help anyone out. You can drop underperformers and invite stronger players and get the job done faster than you will in a Guild of average players because of it.
Playing endgame content exclusively through a Guild makes sense for some players. Here’s a few reasons:
Player is looking to form social connections while doing content. This can happen in pugs, but is far more likely to become meaningful in a Guild where you’re playing with the same people each week.
Player already has connections and would rather play with those connections than with strangers, regardless of efficiency (it could go either way).
Player is bad and knows they’re bad, and would like to avoid the stronger level of negativity that would come because of that in a pug setting.
Player prioritizes social atmosphere above all else (see: player doesn’t deal well with toxicity, regardless of who it is directed at).
That covers most bases, I think. Basically, if someone just wants to do their own thing on their own time without having to consider anyone else, pugging is going to be preferable.
If someone is LOOKING for a more social experience or isn’t playing to a level that will be seen as acceptable in pugs, finding a good fit in a Guild is going to be preferable.
(I am excluding Top Ranking Guilds and such here. There are pretty clear benefits in regards to split runs, loot trading, etc at the top end, and of course the whole progression not resetting every run thing when it comes to higher content like Mythic Raiding, but that doesn’t really apply meaningfully to an average Guild)
Forcing groups is the butterfly effect that forces guilds. Forcing guilds is what kills the idea of having guilds. There is a domino effect rooted in the reward structure. Everything interacts in complicated ways. The solution to reducing the complexities and severity of consquences of these interactions is to make them more flexible.
Everywhere you look in WoW you run into some hard wall intended to corral you into what Blizz thinks you should be doing, how you should be doing it. It is their core design philosophy. The most frustrating part of that is, they would be more able to do that if they were less rigid.
It’s no surprise that with the dawn of everything being cross server , removal of raid ID lockouts to loot lockouts, flexible raid sizes, and a new dungeon system that only takes 5 people with no lockout that a lot of the player base has moved away from guilds and into the pug grinder.
Classic and TBC classic are still very guild focused, especially on the non-mega servers. Raid ID lockouts make pugs riskier than guilds for clears. No cross realm limits opportunities. Static raid sizes encourage people to recruit up rather than just go with what they have.
But at this point maybe it’s what people want? That anonymous face grouping, log on and play type game?
Can it be done in a way that doesn’t just promote cliquey and exclusive behavior?
I’m currently guildless. I’ve had bad experience after bad experience with guilds throughout all of my time in WoW, and I’ve played since Vanilla. When asking for advice on searching out guilds I’m told to either take a shot in the dark with a guild (usually costing money in server/faction transfer fees) or try to navigate wowprogress and try to glean whatever information I can about a guild from it. Which I don’t think I’ve ever been successful with.
As someone who’s been burned time and time again, and is anxious to seek out social connections as a result, you can understand how that might be tough right?
Maddof summed it up pretty well.
While I’m not sure about the starter guild thing as it just seems like it’d be a green trade chat and there’d be no real sense of comraderie as some folks have specific needs that they won’t get met in a random guild, the rest of the quote rings true. Unless you’re talking about a massive overhaul and a complete changing of human nature and social dynamic, I don’t really think there’s a solution.
What happens is that people have more or less time and motivation to spam high keys. When the raiders who are constantly spamming them get way ahead in gearing, they lose patience with people they see as being unwilling to do what they think is necessary. The raid team breaks up. Very common now, and it’s a result of the increasing emphasis on mythic+ in the game.
We hear things like that said a lot by people who don’t ever pug, in fact many never do content with anyone outside their guild.
When you pug you have a choice of adding someone you like. and if someone you never want to see again is bugging you, well, you never have to see them again. In a guild? Your choice may be to put up with someone you don’t like because they have the power to screw with you or quit. This is by design, the idea that putting up with people like that is part of being sociable. It’s not. That’s work you get paid for.
But it hasn’t. It’s turned into pugging. Even those in guilds are just pugging and ignoring their guild.
So the question is: how do we encourage engagement with each other, even when we’re sitting in guilds, without any reason or desire to participate?
I understand this. And this conversation isn’t to force anyone into anything. It’s simply to see how the community can come together to support each other.
That’s not anything like what anyone is saying around here.
This is something that needs addressed, as well. If people are looking for progression, they need to have a way to truly vet a guild or group they might be interested in. Perhaps there needs to be better guild recruitment tools. Maybe better promotion on these forums to incentivize people to post and talk about their guilds in an environment where people can ask questions, find out more about them, etc.
He did not. He made uninformed responses about people with social anxiety disorder and other mental disorders, trying to force them into guilds. That’s not how you get people to interact or have a positive experience when you have a mental disability.
He did though, speaking as someone who genuinely has those issues. I have yet to receive good advice on guild searching that takes that into account. I’m usually just thrown to the wolves and left to fend for myself.
Speaking as someone who has such issues within family members and close friends of 15 years, he does not speak for all, nor do you. Forcing people into social situations is not how everyone works. Nor should it be.
Forcing anyone in life or in a game to do anything like this in a social group is not well received and would further push people away.
And that is a separate issue not solved by simply shoving you into yet another guild. So there needs to be a way to approach such things, as well. As I said, having more incentive to post about such things on these forums, where people can talk to guild leaders, guild members, ask questions, learn more and decide if it’s something they want to try, then that may be a way to go.
I’ll keep thinking on this issue to see if there are any other ideas I can think of.
For XP, you actually lose incentive to play with anyone. Which is also backwards.
Guilds aren’t cliques. You’ve had bad experiences, but this isn’t how everything works across millions of players and probably thousands of guilds. Your negativity and bitterness is overriding your ability to think of anything constructive. How about we try to turn that around and you tell me what tools you need to find what you want? How would you want to see recruitment and information go and what sorts of conversations do you want to have about how to not fall into cliques? And how do we talk with the community on what it is that makes others feel they’re on the outside of these cliques— whether they exist or not?
there have been zero psots asking for classic or TBC to be more pug-friendly.
i think players will play whatever they’re given. the game design itself is the concern.
things like M+ fall under 5man content, a typically puggable part of the game that’s getting increasingly limited to groups with perfect comps and voice comms for high-end.
Cliques exist within guilds, and if you say otherwise, I’d wager you’re someone who was lucky enough to be in the inner circles of your guilds. As someone who got shot down from M+ by my own guild though, I can safely say they exist.
I do have a negative and bitter view when it comes to guilds, but that didn’t just come from nowhere. It came from years of trying and getting burned.
At this point? I don’t know. The only solution I could really think of is a Blizz sponsored program that enforces inclusivity within guilds. Maybe some sanctioned guilds that specifically aid people like me with social anxiety. I wager that would be pretty unpopular though, given some discussions I’ve had with people on these forums.
Would you support a program that helps folks find a guild without a lot of shooting in the dark and luck?
Moon Guard Alliance here y’all. Would love a good kind inclusive supportive guild. But until then, I’d appreciate not having what little I do have by myself taken away.
I’ve been saying FOR YEARS that Blizzard has completely dropped the ball on this.
Blizzard knows:
How often we play.
What times and on which days we play.
What we like to do.
At what difficulty we like to do it.
How successful we are.
They have all this data, they can easily look at people and point them towards guilds of people doing the same things, at the same times, at the same difficulties.
There’s an entire data analysis industry out there that they could easily tap into. You can’t go 30 seconds these days without somebody trying to point you to the perfect insurance policy or food order or game to play or TV show to watch, and Blizzard can’t figure out how to point folks towards guilds that like the same things they do?
I do appreciate that, and you are correct. Blizzard could stand to do more to help people find guilds. As it currently stands, I’m basically just left to my own devices trying to stumble through wowprogress and mass-invites on my server, and I’m just not going to find a home that way.
