Right and what people don’t seem to grasp is that MDI is not push keys. They come up with different routes and strats because MDI is a set key level that allows for it.
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I’ve felt this way since they’ve had to do multiple stat squishes, ilvl squishes and constantly having to address multiple scaling issues across the board. We are getting another stat squish in midnight.
I am all for making the game more horizontal in terms of progression but I do not think people would like that.
If you think you’re salty now, just wait until you see the respawn points of some dungeons in season 2. If you wipe on last boss, it’s over.
And I clarified what I meant with dungeon experience when you asked. I was referring to encounter design, not that you’re simply in an instance with an objective. And delves are simply not the same experience in this regard as a dungeon.
It does for trash, but not bosses. Like I said, there are many “completion” runs that do not complete because the group can’t kill the bosses. And then when a group times a +7 or higher with 20 deaths, the extra risks they took likely weren’t worth the 5 minutes (of course they wouldn’t necessarily know that during their pulls).
I’m not saying the timer doesn’t add significant risk and thus difficulty, it certainly does. It’s just 95% is way too high of a number, especially when many groups struggle the most with bosses in the first place.
I never said groups can’t do this, I said they don’t want the stress of a timer. Just because teams can ignore the timer doesn’t mean it doesn’t cause some stress.
But they are. They could add 1-2 more bosses per delve, but if you took away the timer from m+, it then turns into a delve experience with pulling a single pack, with a single kick, and waiting for CDs just to be safe.
M+ experience minus the timer = delve experience.
Symmetric property of equality.
But that doesnt detract from the fact of what the timer is there for. Youre also picking at an extreme with that example. The timer adds the urgency. The urgency induces risk taking. Whether those risks were necessary is all im hindsight. Or foreseeable with enough experience.
Pack by pack isnt gonna cut it in a +10 NW at 615 ilvl. Gonna have to combine a few packs. Now thats multiple kicks and stops required as well as increased throughput from everybody. Just doubled the risk
All because of the timer.
Yeah no, if i said 100% completion run, the timer doesnt exist in my mind. Theres no stress. If it takes 45 minutes because its pull by pull and its hard, the stress isnt from an ignored feature. Its from the difficulty.
If people want to progress without the stress of a timer, they already can because the system lets them by granting rewards for failure.
Now…if they took rewards away from failed runs we may have another discussion on our hands. But the solution to lowered rewards for a dungeon experience without a timer mimics the delve system
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Would say dungeon bosses are more complex than delve ones.
For sure. They’re designed with a group in mind.
Delves have to be minimalistic to compensate for a solo run.
They could fix this by treating it much like raids. 1-2 people: X mechanics. 3-4 people: Y mechanics. 5 people: Z mechanics.
Increasing the difficulty by adding mechanics much like raids increase mechanics per difficulty
Bro, seriously, stop it. You say this you say that blablablaaahhhh. I’m always agreeing with you and I feel cheap. It’s GD here, we’re here to argue and think with parts of our bodies not made to !
Moreover, people might end thinking we’re… You know…
Friends.
Ugh !
It’s not just the number of bosses, it’s the complexity of the bosses. Again, with designing for one player of any spec, many mechanics are not possible in the design space, unless Blizzard created a different experience for different roles (at a minimum).
Even if they added boss mechanics based on how many players are there as you suggest later, those mechanics would still have to be limited until you reach 5 players due to not knowing what spec combinations you’re going to have (again unless they create an experience for each combination). You still can’t add a tank buster with 3 players unless you strictly enforce bringing a tank with 3 players. Dungeon design is more nuanced than just 5 players, they design for 1 tank, 1 healer, and 3 DPS.
While I do agree trash within a timerless M+ would be closer to delves than boss encounters, there is still a design limitation with delve group compositions that don’t exist with dungeons. Even if all but 1 enemy is CCed, there are still a handful of mobs in most dungeons that demand a tank or healer. Again, you can’t add those to delves.
Also, this discussion is all kind of a rabbit hole anyway. As soon as you talk about needing changes to one mode or the other, you’re largely demonstrating my point. While I suspect Blizzard would make changes at least to scaling if they created a timerless variant of M+, they wouldn’t have to in order to give the experience many are asking for. Encounter design will still leverage full groups. There are already 3-5 bosses in each dungeon. The trash demands some level of coordination between players (even if it’s CCing everything).
Delves just cannot be as mechanically complex as dungeons due to having different groups composition assumptions. So for a player wants that complexity but no timer, a delve is just not a substitute today.
That’s great, but not everyone thinks that way despite being completely rational.
No one is reading all that. Just dont play it. Yall are so bad and refuse to learn how to play the game, its really funny
Untimed runs are just dungeons. You have dungeons. Why do you need harder dungeons if not to time them or test yourself? At thag point its just for free game which you dont need if you arent pushing
The thing is, too many players are doing things they should not be doing. And sometimes it isn’t about skill, it’s about what they actually enjoy and desire. Mythic plus isn’t for everyone-that’s why we have raids, pvp and now delves.
Blizzard can only do so much-design and tuning. They need to do better and prevent things like the minecart in Darkflame Cleft. However, the vast majority of the problems are with the community and the horrendous behavior and exterior resources like addons, RaiderIO and the new thing is WoWOP. You think RaiderIO rating is bad? Pretty soon the big thing will be having scores for every metric. It’s going to get worse before it gets better.
OP-do what you can and take the game at a pace and remember you can only control what you do. No matter how much something might not be your fault, there will always be immature and toxic people who place the blame instead of having any integrity. And that mentality is the same thing you see when people blame every little thing on Blizzard-it just isn’t true, but it’s the easy, cowardly way they do it.
You’ll have to ask the people who want scaled timerless dungeons. I wouldn’t play a scaled dungeon without the timer myself.
But it’s a common enough discussion and Blizzard acknowledged such groups exist with the blog post they released with DF S4 that clearly there is some appetite for it. I would much rather get a separate game mode than having M+ changed to provide that timerless experience to those who might like it.
I just wish there wasn’t a meta or it didn’t trickle down to lower keys. But what blizz did with the aoe stops, death timer, and the drastic difficulty gap between 11s and 12s it’s easy to understand why there’s so much gatekeeping.
Most bosses are just dodge dodge damage reduction, heal up.
Delves have that as well.
Not at all. Its not hard to create an ability set to do X% of players total health. Zekvir is a perfect example of that. His auto attacks were set to do the same amount across the board.
Set abilities to like 60% of targets overall health as a base. Doesnt matter what the role is. Still hurtful in a group, still survivable as a solo clothie.
You can. Look right here ^^
You can. You dont need a tank buster that will 100-0 anyone whos not a tank to be complex. Tank bustets are there to reinforce the NEED of a tank in dungeon content. Otherwise its back to dodge dodge damage reduction the unavoidable damage, heal up, repeat.
Dungeon experience with all dps: delves
Dungeon experience with no timer: delves
Dont wanna do the holy trinity: delves
Dont want to deplete upon failure: delves
Want top end rewards from low level play: delves
Most of allnm+ change requests can be answered by delves. Granted its a bit over simplified. But this is the first iteration of their experiments. M+ went through many changes to get to where it is.
As someone who doesnt like delves, delves are the answer to a lot of things and have a lot of potential
Met most of my friends and my guild who I’ve been with for 2 years now through M+. Removing the mode because a % of people don’t like the current system is kinda selfish. The mode needs to be reworked again unfortunately but it’s a seasonal game… some seasons will be better than others lol
Holy hellllllll this popped off since I left.
I really appreciate all the replies and active discussions going on. I read all the comments but dang its too many to respond too. Also good job on being mostly civil, which is an achievement on a forum page in itself lol.
Agree, disagree with my side or others. I think we can ALL agree we ALL want the game to be better. Even if you think it’s good right now, even if you think its bad right now. No game is perfect and we all want improvements. That’s why we have these discussions. We want the game to grow and thrive. We care so much about the franchise in general we’re spending our free time debating solutions for a game mode. Just want to make clear the criticism is with the people creating the game, and not the game itself.
Reading the previous replies, I’d like to say there’s been a growing culture in gaming in general. Where “hard game = good game”. It doesn’t. It can! Example: I played and beat Elden Ring, about 70 hours of game time. ~70% of those hours are just spent retrying the same boss over and over again. If every boss somehow was taken down in one shot the game would be like 30 hours to complete. There’s no real story, the combat is okay, the world is beautiful, but the exploration is top notch. Would I call it a fun game? Sure! I had fun with it. Would I call it a good game? Not really. Same for Black Myth Wukong honestly.
Most people who play video games at all are playing Madden, 2k, the latest Call of Duty, casual Rocket League or Smash Bros or replaying old games like Skyrim. They’re not on forums, they’re not up to date on the latest gaming news/drama. The hardcore games are a barrier of entry to a lot of new/potential players and like it or not, that’s indirectly hurting the game. I think its an economics term? Missed cost opportunity or something? Correct me if I’m wrong please.
I’ve seen situations where these same casual gamers will try out WoW, do Exiles Reach, LFG or a follower dungeon if they get far enough and say, “bro idk there’s so much going on and so many buttons, I dont wanna learn all this” and quit. Mock and make fun of these people all you want for not sticking to it, but you can’t change their actions, they’re PEOPLE and their feelings are just as valid as mine and yours, especially when the same amount of $ is attached to their name. And before you say it, yes, I would want these lower skill players to experience WoW too. Why shouldn’t they be able to? If the new or low skill players were treated better it would help everyone’s experience in the long run.
Heck, look at that viral Day9TV video of “My Retail World of Warcraft Experience” He’s not even a casual gamer, he does this for a living, has a general idea of Blizzard gameplay, and even WoW was almost too steep of a learning curve for him to see it through. Though I think he did eventually quit for Classic. His reactions in that video are the average new player experience. We all know WoW is one of the top aging playerbases, that means people who didn’t grow up with it are likely not fans.
The difficulty needs to go. My opinion.
I got games for everything.
Skill Expression? FPS/Fighting games
Difficulty? Souls/Roguelike
Story? RPGs
Cozy? Farm/Base building simulators
Characters? Visual Novels
MMOs can have all of these, but their main draw is the social aspect. And its slowly withering away due to the environment Blizzard created.
/s say “how’s everyone doing today?” on WoW in a busy area in a non RP server and see if anyone replies. 9 out of 10 times they won’t. RP servers and FFXIV/Guild Wars, people will respond and have a quick chat.
No not, tangent. Symptom.
2 Likes
I have been chillin and talking with people all night.
I just do 1 key a week on a set schedule with friends. I’m not grinding and grinding these same 8 dungeons hundreds of times with random people. Only reason m+ is fun at all is hanging with friends on discord. I still accomplish all of my goals, just not on week 2, and I don’t get burnt out.
Playing exclusivly with friends makes the m+ score completely irrelevant. I did a +10 with friends before and it was the first time I set foot in that dungeon. It was funny when all the achievements popped up at the end.
I log in at the set time each week and usually have an invite waiting before the game even finishes loading, we smash a key in about 30 mins and I log off. No siting around looking at pug listings and waiting in a queue at all, no meta class required, nobody cares at all about my m+ score.
My recurring plea for them to bring back the un-squished track goes here.