Blizzard. I feel like you actively dislike DK and want it gone

Historically, Blizzard has always been extremely quick to put out heavy handed nerfs to DK when they’re in a strong spot while at the same time, exceedingly slow to trickle in some minuscule buffs when we’re weak overall because we’re strong in one extremely specific area of the game. Why can multiple Rogue and Mage specs occupy half of the strongest spots in the game for months on end while DK sits at or near the bottom for both DPS specs and often have very low representation numbers for Blood at the same time? All 3 specs are in the gutter overall and thats fine?

I remember the beginning of Legion where Frost DK was unquestionably the lowest performing DPS spec in the entire game. On top of being a slow moving class and having no group buffs or actual utility outside of death grip. They remained that way all the way up until 7.1 when Frost got a whopping 2 abilities buffed. Obliterate did so little damage that people were actually straight up taking it off their bar and just using Frostscythe instead. And that wasn’t the first time that Obliterate was ignored. Anyone else remember Master Frost? In MoP, Obliterate had 0 scaling so people took it off their bars and spammed Howling Blast and Death and Decay to convert the runes into Death Runes. Imagine being a melee class with such terrible design that you only used a single melee ability and spammed spells outside of that.

Looking at DF and TWW, DK is pretty good in M+ but only under certain circumstances. If your group doesn’t pull big, theres no real reason to bring a DK. And big group pulls like that are more or less only actual premades with comms. You aren’t joining a discord for a random M+ you found in the group finder. While at the same time, we have poor raid DPS and poor representation in high end PVP. Why is this acceptable? Why are we doomed to do one specific piece of content and putting in extra effort to shine? So if I want to play a different aspect of the game, I’m greeted with poor results regardless of how well I play my character? Thats not fair, nor is it fun. Its discouraging. I could understand if this happened occasionally. Balance changes over time, I get that. But why are we pretty much always there? At best, we’re mid pack raid DPS and terrible at everything else. The poor performance of DK in DF Season 1 is the specific reason I stopped playing for the entire xpac.

So not only are numbers themselves usually pretty bad, but the design of the class has gone downhill in every expansion. Legion turned Unholy into a pimple popping joke that has the majority of its damage come from summoned Undead. You apparently forgot that we’re still a plate wearing Knight with a Two Handed weapon. Why is Unholy the only spec with pet that doesn’t actually depend on in the game that gets forced to use it? Huntes and Warlocks, known as “pet classes” both have options to get rid of them in addition to having a spec where the Pet(s) are the main focus. Why don’t we? We have a spec that gets forced to use a Pet that it doesn’t interact with whatsoever outside of Dark Transformation and situational use of Gnaw. The rotation doesn’t depend on the pet whatsoever. Except despite that, the majority of our damage comes from the main pet and the summon cooldowns. Which wouldn’t be that big of an issue except Frost usually performs poorly so we either give up a massive amount of DPS or we get forced to deal with a Pet that more or less is nothing more than a glorified physical manifestation of a DoT that gets automatically applied and has an infinite duration and doesn’t modify or change our rotation in any way. It doesn’t buff a particular ability or anything. Its just there. Doing damage. Without any input or thought from the player.

And what you did to Frost in Legion…oh man. I applaud you for going out of your way a little bit to make sure Frost could use a Two Hander again, but you didn’t change the tree to mesh with it. You just hamfisted it back in and bandaid buff it every once in a while. The spec itself is still almost identical to its Legion design which was designed around having 2 Runeforges and a higher number of melee swings. But even with the bandaid buffs, the often very low raw numbers that 2H puts out makes the spec straight up non viable in high end play. And as usual, you leave it like that for entire seasons. How hard is it to at least try and bandaid it by buffing MotFW? 2H Frost spends 80% of its time being completely non viable for Heroic raid or anything above a +8 and the other 20% being mediocre at best. Once you get gear beyond LFR or base Mythic dungeons, it gets immediately outclassed by nearly every dps spec in the game. Just for frame of reference, my 597 Ret Paladin does 750k dps while my 615+ DK struggles to do even 10% more damage than that with 2H Frost.

And then theres the topic of our visuals. They look like they’re from 2008. Oh thats because most of them are from 2008. All of our main abilities look exactly the same as they did 16 years ago. Death Strike, Scourge Strike, Heart Strike, Obliterate, Frost Strike, Death Coil, Raise Dead, Chains of Ice, Anti Magic Shell, Anti Magic Zone, etc. There are other abilities that were introduced in a later expansion but are still just as bad as the earlier ones and still haven’t been touched since before covid.

The entire class from top to bottom feels intentionally neglected and treated as an afterthought that has to be hastily added in at the end because everybody forgot they exist except one guy in a meeting that asked about them as everyone was getting up to leave. Do you have nobody at Blizzard that is passionate about Death Knights? Whats the deal?

19 Likes

Back in WotLK DK felts so good to play and was more or less like dark version of a ret pally. Now it’s trying to be a warlock, hunter, and warrior all in one. Thing is, the diseases aren’t nearly as effective as a warlocks dots, pets dont do the same dam or intuitiveness as a hunter and our weapon attacks are pale in comparison to warriors. I think they need to get rid of pets for unholy and make a necromancer tree

12 Likes

they for sure hav 1 dev with a lot of dk passion and that dude is hard stuck in 2008. He still thinks dk is a hero class, and if u ask him Wolk was the best xpac ever. He is the reason we hav 1 eye color, and none of our spell effects hav changed since Wolk beta. He is the reason why we do not get to play new races when they r added, and he is the reason why we have used the same weapon enchant since Wolk. He is a gatekeeper, with his heels firmly dug into the ground refusing to let the class change or evolve in any meaningful way. So long as this one guy remains at bliz we will continue to be designed based around lore that was written 20 years ago, and the class will never improve. We will never feel new.

6 Likes

Then its all of Blizzard because their class devs get moved around constantly and its a team effort.

I guarantee they look and see what the playerbase wants because there are so many things that the playerbase has suggested that have been implemented from expansion to expansion. So the playerbase is just as culpable as the devs for the state of DK as a whole.

Fatal Fixation, KM rank 2 / Frostreaper, making things baseline, changing talents around, San’layn being based on Dancing Rune Weapon instead of Vamp Blood, Cleaving Strikes, and on and on. Its just the hype finally wears off after getting what they want that they finally see the issues with something and they want to remove any and all responsibility for their role in the state the class is in.

With the dev team being switched around, they can only look to the playerbase to get a sense of what they want. I know these forums always want a singular boogieman to point to and blame, but they are usually the reason things are in the state that they are. This comes back to not wanting to take responsibility for their actions.

So can at least Frost use more ST damage? Yes… but how exactly are they supposed to do that when people have asked for Blizzard to do the things they did. Increase the target cap of Obliterate, make Frost Strike cleave, Arctic Assault to come back which just adds even more to a singular global and on and on and on.

So what do you guys want to give up in order to get this balance? You cant have absolutely everything.

Dancing Rune Weapon is pure clown show ,and the fact a final tier TWW talent is linked to it only makes it a double clown show.

3 Likes

DKs are pretty much a constant reminder of one of blizzard’s few, actually good expansions. Every time they see a DK they go into a blind rage. They hope over the years while everything else gets updated and DKs are still stuck in WOTLK, they’ll die off

4 Likes

I stopped playing DK when I came back in TWW. It feels slower and clunkier than ever before and just isn’t fun. Other melee specs function dozens of times faster and put Frost to shame with DPS output. I’m tired of having to work twice as hard for half the reward.

3 Likes

Unholy is great. Try playing a warrior then you’ll know if devs are working on your class or not.

1 Like

Dont listen to the Dk forums, they can change and add 20 things and these people will say Blizzard is ignoring them. They did add stuff to DK going into TWW but apparently they dont exist.

2 Likes

Death Knights received a pseudo-rework, most of us knew these were just Band-Aid fixes. There are still many aspects that need meaningful improvements.

Frost DK Issues

  • Clunky Rotation: The spec feels awkward because Death and Decay is required for cleave, instead of simply having cleave built into Remorseless Winter. This should be adjusted to make Frost’s AoE more intuitive.
  • Auto-Attack Talents: Too many talents favor dual-wielding, forcing players into that build instead of allowing two-handed Frost to be competitive. These should be removed.

  • Breath of Sindragosa Problem:
    • This capstone talent completely changes the playstyle at max level.
    • Players leveling from 1-70 suddenly have to relearn the class to optimize a strict 2-minute burst window.
    • Obliterate builds consistently fall behind, partially due to the clunkiness of Death and Decay and auto-attack dependency.

Unholy DK Issues

  • Outdated Combo Mechanic: The “pimple-popping” pseudo-combo point system feels stale and outdated.
  • Lackluster Ghouls: While improvements have been made, the current ghoul mechanics still feel weak.

  • Necromancer Conflict: Unholy DK prevents Blizzard from ever introducing a true Necromancer class, which feels like a missed opportunity. Either Unholy needs a complete identity shift or significant improvements to feel distinct and impactful.
  • Niche Usefulness: Like Frost, Unholy only shines in very specific situations rather than being a well-rounded spec.

  • Undead Stable System:
    • Unholy DKs should have a stable system similar to Hunters, allowing us to tame undead creatures and keep a selection of undead/animated corpses.
    • Since we already have Lichborne, Blizzard could expand on this and make it a temporary transformation button.
    • Dark Transformation could also be reworked to affect the Death Knight instead of just pets, providing more flexibility in gameplay.
      • Control Undead, for instance, does not work for Unholy DK since tamed undead creatures do not benefit from Dark Transformation—it feels awful to have an ability that doesn’t even apply to our own minions.

Blood DK Issues

  • Survivability Problems: Blood DKs are too fragile in Mythic+—they can go from 100 to 0 in a couple of globals.
  • Dancing Rune Weapon (DRW):
    • This should be off the GCD—having a defensive cooldown delayed makes no sense.
  • Bone Shield & Defensive Synergy:
    • Needs alternative ways to build Bone Shield stacks.
    • Needs better synergy between defensive abilities to improve tanking reliability.

  • Defensive Paradox:
    • Blood DKs have a counterintuitive relationship with damage mitigation.
    • Using defensives reduces damage taken, but since Death Strike heals based on damage received, mitigating damage reduces healing, making survival harder.
    • If you don’t use defensives, you risk dying before you can Death Strike to heal back up.
      • No other tank spec has this issue. This needs to be addressed so damage reduction does not negatively impact self-healing.

  • Tanking Viability:
    • Mid-tier tank in Mythic+.
    • Situational pick in raids (mostly for grips).

tl;dr

Death Knights deserve more than just temporary fixes. These specs need meaningful changes to address:
→ Clunky mechanics
→ Talent bloat and poor synergy
→ Competitive viability across different content
→ Counterintuitive defensive mechanics (Blood DK)
→ More pet customization and identity for Unholy DK

4 Likes

Its already been explained that this isnt a good idea.

Its a DW spec. Dont want to play DW dont play a DW spec.

Ive lost count on how many times you’ve been proven wrong on this. Stop talking.

  • Frost was always a 2H spec. DW wasnt even viable until the final patch of WotLK when they added the absolute bare minimum of using both weapons for strikes
  • Frost didn’t become a DW only spec until Legion (which was 4 expansions after DK was put into the game) and just like every other spec in the game that could use multiple weapon setups, Blzzard limited it to one because the specs were limited to a single artifact weapon. Since Unholy and Blood were both 2H only, they made Frost DW because they didn’t want to alienate DW players. That is the sole reason weather you like it or not.
  • Blizzard went out of their way to re-add talents/passives into the game to allow those affected specs to choose their weapon setups from before Legion.

Your argument is just as pants-on-head moronic if you were to argue that Unholy isn’t a 2h spec. A spec that allows you to use a 2H and has supporting talents/passives to support using a 2H is explicitly not a DW spec. If Frost was a DW spec, it wouldnt allow you to equip a 2H weapon and have talents and passives that make it clear that you are encouraged to use a 2H weapon if you would like. But it does. So cry about it. Period. The end. Discussion over.

Your argument is bad, has been proven wrong multiple times and is frankly just plain wrong.

The facts arent up for debate. You are wrong. Deal with it.

9 Likes

I’m pretty sure a vast majority of people on the Dk forum has Kelliste on ignore.
All I see is:

VIEW 1 HIDDEN REPLY

They’re “always” right, according to themselves.

8 Likes

I don’t know why this debate keeps coming up since it has already been demonstrated years ago that Frost was traditionally a 2H spec, and then 1H was an experimental gimmick that caused the balancing nightmare we still suffer from today.

All DK specs were 2H and Frost happened to be allowed to use 1H as well, but it was trash because abilities only calculated main-hand weapons. The mechanics had to be completely changed to accommodate it by adding Threat of Thassarian because dual-wielding was useless without the second weapon be accounted for.

But it didn’t stop there. In continued attempts to make DW compete as a playstyle, ToT was moved further up the talent tree so it was learned earlier, and then it was ultimately added as a baseline ability in the spellbook. Plus, it massively increased the damage of Frost Strike whilst using one-handers, a damage modifier which was also buffed significantly over time.

And if that wasn’t enough, Nerves of Cold Steel also gave a large damage buff to off-hand weapons as well as an increase in hit chance, which by the way, was also buffed over time and moved further up the talent tree to be accessible earlier. DW received buff after buff and had to be juiced up to the next galaxy just for it to compete with 2H, and look at where we ended up.

Frost is in a perpetual state of tuning purgatory and the devs don’t even seem to know what they want the spec’s identity to be.

7 Likes

Its because of things like this which are demonstrably wrong.

Wrath was DW
Cata was DW
MoP was DW
WoD was DW
Legion was DW
BFA was DW
SL was DW
DF was DW
and TWW is DW

Even Blizzard themselves said that Frost is DW.

No it wasnt.

https ://www.wowhead.com/cata/talent-calc/death-knight/-30330022233112011301

MoP is when the talent system changed.

Thanks for showing how Frost was actually a DW spec.

Another lie. The proof is when 2h was added back to Frost in SL. No Frost Strike steroid, no Nerves of Cold Steel and where was 2h? Oh right, it had the increased KM chance added, increased Obliterate damage and it was still behind.

Oh and dont forget MotFW was added in Cata for 2h and it was still behind.

Everything said in your post is wrong and actually showed how Frost is a DW spec. Unless you can show logs of 2h being ahead in Wrath and Cata, you are sitting on a big ol bucket of nothing.

The answer is 0.

No it wasnt.

Wrong, it was used prior to that, and 3.3 was the final patch and ToT was added in 3.2. Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

So? Frost was never a 2h only spec. It could use a 2h, but it wasnt a 2h spec.

Again… so? When 2h was added back in SL was it better than DW? No it wasnt, people were constantly complaining that you needed a 2h weapon 20ilvls higher than 1h weapons just to compete and DW didnt have its steroids but 2h did.

That is your argument, you are trying to argue that Unholy isnt a 2h spec.

Never said it was only a DW spec. Ive always said it was primarily a DW spec, in that it performed the best. You trying to say im out here saying “only” is just flat out false and you just continue to get felted. You are there with no chips trying to tell people their losers.

Alright, i can use the same arguement, if Frost was a 2h spec why did DW perform better? Why did it have supporting passives and talents? Clearly that means you should play frost as DW.

I agree, it is over. Its primarily a DW spec. It performed the best ALWAYS outside of 1 raid tier in WoD.

Where is the proof?

Apparently they are since you keep trying to debate them. Blizzard said Frost was DW. You have no argument against it, the logs show that DW performed better even if you had Shadowmourne 2h was worse than DW, the guides say DW and those are the people that dig through everything.

So while you could use a 2h, you were just shooting yourself in the foot if you did.

Bro is crashing out over DW :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

12 Likes

Who is crashing out? The people still claiming that Frost was better with 2h and trying to revise history which everyone can look up?

Sorry but 2h sucked. Dont want to play a DW spec then go to unholy or ret or arms.

Son, what are you droning on about? My information is based on developers’ patch notes and data pulled directly from the game. Telling me I’m “lying” is a massive self-report.

1H needed a passive that completely overrode the game’s mechanics because DW had almost nonexistent damage output without it.

4 Likes

You being wrong.

No its not. You made more claims other than “they added ToT” and you completely ignored the rest of the post didnt you?

Where is your refutation on ToT being moved up earlier in the tree to be learned earlier. Is it because its a 6th tier talent in cata even though cata talent trees only had 7 tiers so it was a 27-30 point talent as was MotFW and you just left out that information to try to say ToT needed to be learned earlier?

No it didnt. It didnt override the games mechanics. And its damage wasnt almost non existent either since the spec prior to 3.2 was a DW Frost/Unholy hybrid focusing on spells and summons like Howling Blast and Gargoyle as well as auto attacks being an absolute ton of damage.

Also, why did the Morbidity build work which basically ignored Weapon Strikes? The only 2 weapon strikes were Plague Strike and Blood Strike.

“DW had almost non-existent damage without it yet these other DW build worked without it”

This is a grand delusion spewed by DW haters. Thats it. Thats all you do. You have nothing to back it up.

https ://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/9kg2Cb7VD1warmFA?fight=17&type=damage-done&source=21

There is evidence of what I am saying. So what are you droning on about? 2h sucked and it still sucks.