Blitz 1600 bracket 'black hole' issue, Please listen Blizzard

I am sure there have been lots of posts about the wall/‘black hole’ issue in blitz and they are right to blame the MMR cuz it is a bad proxy to tell the bad from the good.
Let me define what baddies mean in blitz by few examples.

  1. In Gilneas a hunter that claimed to sit a base lost it because he didnt use bge addon to check stealthy and see who is missing on enemy team and he didnt call inc. Then he said I wasn’t the issue because I got kills and dps blahblah.
  2. In a flag map, a dps is fighting in the mid instead of efc.
  3. In deepwind or other node maps, a player is wastinig time on a fully locked base that was turned by emeny.

I am sure I can speak for everyone that they don’t belong to rated blitz. People don’t have to be grand marshal or R1 glad and there is no shame in losing to those cuz everyone has to learn. The bottom line here is that everyone is here to win by doing mechanics that give the victory points. Yet MMR is a fiasco because it doesn’t gate these baddies, who are the same people that cause bg loss in random bgs. In fact there is a fundemental issue:

The 1500-1600 bracket is a ‘absorbing state’ in statisics terms. For example people can win two games to win 15 ratings and lose one game to lose 15 ratings. It is a RANDOM WALK with mean 0. Why? Because the bracket of 1600 is too crowded and cannot distinguish baddies from good people who are trying to win. In economics it is called “Bad money drives out good”. Blizzard you have to know that it is MUCH EASIER for a baddie to ruin a game than for a R1 glad/Grand Marshal to save a game.

You can ask your statistician (if you have hired anyone) to simulate 1 million games with parameters that mimic these baddies and your MMR system. I am sure at the end of day the MAJORITY of the mass of the distribution will be stuck at 1500 - 1600 bracket. Only a small portion can flee. Because before 1500 even baddies can eventually craw to this rating cuz there is not much penalty before 1500. Baddies are very likely to be matched to people with good attitude/exp and ruin their games. Again this becomes a stable system. You can go up in ratings but eventually you go down again.

To solve this problem, I think you need to consider 2 things. First you really need to do something about the notorious MMR system in bg. Actually one thing you did good was the score point calculation. For example in the temple orb map, besides dps/hps, there is also a victory point. This is a good start. You can create a better proxy to measure a player. Say 30% of the MMR, 30% of the dps/hps percentiles compared to the same people with the same roles that participated in the same match, and 30% of victory points (VP). The VP could be orb grabbing/killing points in orb map, base defense/cap points in node games or efc killing/fc peeling points for flag maps. It is a more comprehensive way and it ill quickly rule out the people that had no damage/healand didnt do mechanics. It is way better than MMR along. Natual convergence by MMR is TOO SLOW.

Second thing is increasing the ‘searching heat’, which is a statistic term to accelerate the converging speed. You need to allow 1600 people to be matched to 1800 and 1800 to 2000 occasionally and if they win they can jump out. It is a better way to converge people to ratings they belong to. It doenst mean to ruin higher rated people’s bg by forcing them to be matched to lower rated players. You can reduce the penalty if a 2000 player loses in a 1600 game. Just do something to give good players a chance to jump out.

To sum it up, you need to forget about your old template for MMR that you think worked in 2s, 3s and rbg. It may work for solo shuffle but it definitely need MODIFICATIONS. A better proxy and more aggresive converge is needed. Just do a summary of people’s past arena/rbg exp distribution among the 1600 bracket people, believe you will see a huge polarization. This bracket has all kinds of people. You will find duelist even glads but you will also see people with no bg exp. Again this bracket is a consequence of the MMR cuz it is not an elixir. The current situation of blitz has prooved that this black whole is a natural product or your MMR system.

Blitz is a good and I’m sure everyone who doesnt have time for fixed guild events for rbg would still want to play it, but only when you fix this black whole issue.

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Wow that’s a lot of text….all you had to say was NERF HUNTERS

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There is no “black hole” or “elo hell” it’s simply you are playing at the skill level you currently belong at. Good players aren’t stuck at 1600 so find a little bit of accountability and improve.

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While I do agree the quality of the low rating games are extremely low and you definitely will get some unwinnable games… If you q enough and are good enough, you will win more than you lose and get out of there. Duoing definitely helps in the lower brackets but stops mattering as much at higher ratings.

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1600 bracket is when you stop getting 100+ rating a win, and start getting normal rating gains. If you cant win your way out of 1600, its where you belong.

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I just had a 2300 EotS game where it was 1200-1200. They had 2 bases and flag. They randomly capped flag. 1200-1350. We get both bases and spin it’s now 1300-1350. Our player with the flag decided to cap despite us spamming him to not cap. 1450-1350. They get flag and one base and win.

Literally 2 insane throws within 20 seconds of each other so I promise you it’s not just the 1600 bracket. There’s people who got carried by luck to high rating too who have zero clue how the bgs work.

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I disagree with some things that you said, but this is the real key issue with lower MMR matches.

If you are a decent player, it is actually easier to play in higher MMR matches where you are fighting good players BUT also have good players on your team. It doesn’t feel like you have to carry the entire game and there will even be games that you win that you were not the main reason that you won (which is a nice feeling to have every once in awhile).

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I mean, this does happen. If you have a decent run your MMV will place you into such games. The problem is that you can also be unlucky and land on a few teams where you have no chance of winning (overall lack of damage, lack of healing, and/or lack of objective play) and lose a lot of the ground you gained.

I think the MMV swings are a bit too volatile for the RNGish nature of Blitz.

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They have to be fighting someone on the other team. Sounds like it would still be an even match.

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More evidence that CR doesn’t always correspond to knowledge and intelligence. Because people who do that belong under 1500 UNLESS they are about to die and are forced to cap, but that doesn’t sound like the case in your story.

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Maybe I wasn’t clear but by stuck I didn’t mean being there forever. All I said was that the time and effort to go up in ranks didn’t match my expectation based on my exp in rated bgs before, espesically as dps. In rated bg if I remember correctly it is 150+ per win before 1500 but still a lot after 1500. It didn’t take me much time to get to 1900 or 2000 with pugs.

But the path to rank up is much slower in blitz and a bit of random. I did experiments with dps and heal chars. Because heals have on average 4-8 min real queue time I was able to do a lot games and now I am at 1900 rank and the mmr of my mathces are 2600 ish in one night. It wasn’t even my main and I haven’t played it for a while. Sure I can grind rankings with my dps but it will take much longer time. My point is not about wheter ur a dps or heal but just to show that more games eventually bring you up and where you belong, but the number needed is crazy.

Moreoever it is about the experience of the game. When you at low ranks you can always do objectives and be top dps at the same time but there are always game throwers that made the games nightmares. At 2600 MMR matches games are always closer, if you lose the points are almost ties and you always learn something.

OP liked his own massive wall of text with alts, lol.

I’m not high rated or anything ( ~2290 atm ), but I don’t use BGE and have zero issues using my eyes to see whats going on.

Edit: Just to clarify, I didn’t read your wall of text. I read like up to your 1/2/3.

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Are there actually any other successful competitive games with so many players per team that do a better job? I think at most it’s 5v5. 8v8 seems like it’s inevitably going to be random in the short term.

Plus there are limited ways to carry in WoW, unlike say in a shooter where you can dominate with the exceptional aim. Or be an amazing tank like in Overwatch. Or be an exceptional flanker/jungle like in League. In WoW, it’s all about painstakingly doing your best job at being the best generic cog in the machine.

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How do you use your eyes to determine if the enemy rogue is stealthed or not? Hopefully, you don’t guard any bases. :stuck_out_tongue:

I have an addon called ‘spy’ that shows the enemy team ( and people open world in range - which is why I have it ). I also generally just watch when the gates open to see where they head towards, people make it way more complicated than it really is :woman_shrugging:

While I mostly agree, there kinda is… Not that it’s unique to 1600 specifically, but more of an issue of how MMR works in blitz. You need to string together a bunch of wins in a row to really make a meaningful dent in your MMR. Because of that, RNG alone is enough to keep players bouncing around the mid to lower brackets.

For the average player, it’s really hard to distinguish yourself in a group of 8-16 other players and actually do something that secures wins because of your input. Totally agree that personal accountability is important and that the better players will rise to the top, but it’s a more ambiguous in Blitz and you really have to grind out a lot of games potentially to find the MMR range that best suits your ability.

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Huh? You can’t watch where a rogue is going in BFG without using BGE. Spy does give a warning when someone stealths, but I think that is across the entire BG, not a proximity warning. Not sure, I haven’t used it in BGs.

Now, if I am sitting mines in BFG and have the enemy rogue targeted in BGE and notice they stealth up on the plateau (where you do not have line of sight), then I grab stealth detection and try to ruin their day.

Which is very RNG, because the chance of getting a total fail team is not small, even at higher MMR.

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Huh? Look at scoreboard sees a Rogue /target Rogue and just watch where they go? If it’s BGB and I see him running towards LH and stealths, pretty good odds he’s sitting LH. If I see him moving up the hill towards mine, can you guess where he’s going? You can also see who they’re targeting as they’re running and go “Oh, he’s targeting the Priest at WW” and infer from that he’s going WW.