Think explosive arrow, the dot, and serpent sting, could also be dispelled
1 Like
Only issue I see with BM and msrv, is melee survival takes about half of BMâs abilities. Ranged survival was unique at least, being the only ranged spec that did physical and magical dmg at the same time
Sorry, a bit of a long post here, but, I just had to 
Ofc we like different things.
I will say this though.
What I want in terms of that old SV playstyle, is not something you combine with things like the new Essences, ESPECIALLY, those that makes you shoot laser beams etc.
Gaining random abilities that have no ties whatsoever to the fantasy of the class(and spec) that Iâm playing, is down at the bottom of things that I would want it to have to play with.
This will always be about subjective opinions the most. Looking at it objectively, sure there are still some stuff you might whish for to be different, things that some other classes maybe have access too.
But in the end, it will always be about what individuals like or not.
God I hope notâŠ
Idd.
Very much agree. Iâm VERY âvocalâ about the fact that I want ranged SV back as a playable spec option. ButâŠwe have seen in the past(when we lost RSV), what effect it can have on the playerbase if they decide to remove one playstyle in favor of another one.
Can fully understand this. Introducing a new spec/playstyle to a class will always require much time and work to get right. Will it be problem free? No.
But! Will it be worth it? Looking at how popular of a demand the return of RSV still is, after quite a few years, I would say so.
And, like Iâve said previously.
If you can produce a spec design that shows to have a unique core playstyle from that of the existing specs within the intended class. If you can show that the new design, that it has a very realistic fit to the overall Class fantasy.
And, if you can show that the new playstyle fills a void in terms of things that the class previously wasnât able to do.
As an example, RSV dealt with DoT-based abilities in the past, and thatâs still the goal with it. For anyone who have checked my link for a suggested design, they will see that RSV could(thanks to the new focus on spec identities), could be even more about building up those DoTs.
As it is now, the Hunter class falls behind on every single fight where you remotely gain an advantage if you can multi-DoT. An updated design for RSV with focus on DoTs(via enhanced ammunition coated in venom/poison), can help us deal with that.
Sorry, got carried away there 
Spot on, it would essentially cause the same problems as the old Feral spec did for druids before they split it into two. Granted that was splitting 1 tank spec and 1 DD spec. But youâd still have the same problems.
And like you said, removing the melee playstyle in favor of the ranged, especially while keeping the other elements of current MSV, would just make it even worse.
And, yes, it would be even more like BM than it already is.
Just wanted to highlight this part^^
MM might very well be.
But like you said in the last sentence. Itâs a sizeable risk yes.
I created this(link), a while back as a way to show how we could get some of the core stuff from old SV in via MM talents.
#https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/we-miss-old-survival-hunter-and-why-it-should-be-back/21056/69
The problem is that, anything we can insert into MM, will not actually bring back all the nuances that made the old SV so great. You can switch out more of the current MM talents as well as certain passive effects.
ButâŠat what point does MM become the new RSV spec instead of still having itâs core be what MM is supposed to be?
When is it enough to allow us to feel like weâre actually playing RSV again?
When does it become to much so that iâs not MM anymore(when those that like the current MM design of heavy hitters and strong burst, canât effectively get that anymore)?
Final notes/TL;DR:
Change talents in the MSV spec so we can switch between melee/ranged. It still wonât give us the old RSV feel. It will cause the same issues(to a degree) that the old Feral did for Druids before they split it. And it will with a guarantee, upset current MSV players.
Change talents in MM so that we can choose between the very core of it, and the core of the old RSV(that being, Explosive Shot, Black Arrow, Serpent Sting).
It still wonât give us the old RSV spec back.
And, while it wouldnât be on the same level as with the above example of a MSV/RSV-combo. It would still cause many problems. And it will most likely upset many current MM players who want the current focus to remain intact.
If we go back to my initial arguments of, well, we might as well not do anything then(says devs).
I answer with: Okay, what would your arguments be for not doing this?
It would require a lot of work? All new spec designs/class designs requires workâŠ
And if we look at how popular of a request this is, how many both past and current hunters/players who want it back. Would it not be worth it?
This is something that concerns me.
If they introduce a 4th spec, chances are, it may not even measure up to past RSV kits. Then, they have the issue of a precedence that theyâre obligated for other classes.
If they replace MM with something not up to scratch, thereâs also the issue (but tbh, it couldnât get much worse considering mistakes made). Personally, I think this is the safest bet for reintroducing RSV mechanics in a complete MM restructuring.
Most, if not all specs are very, very different from past iterations. I feel if RSV was remade, it still would not resemble what people loved.
Donât know really. Always comes down to every single individual what they think.
This is my take on how the spec could be designed with todays systems in mind. Feel free to check it out. (Would love some more feedback)
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I enjoy the feel and playstyle of survival⊠Unfortunately, I find that BM ultimately performs better and itâs really hard to get anyone to accept a survival hunter into anything⊠Even more so when said Hunter is a filthy casual with a low raider io score like myself.
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Yea Iâm talking about PvP. Rogue and Warriors are fodder to SV.
And SV does both their jobs better in BGs. Especially warriors who are straight fodder atm. SV is literally the top 1v 1 spec atm, right up there with UH.
Meh it wasnât as good as MM or BM except for a short part of its existence.
You know this Boopples quit your shenanigans.
I think youâre on a more realistic track, trying to get the RSV playstyle implemented in the other two specs.
A fourth spec still seems like a stretch to me.
Oh yes!
A stretch idd.
Blizz have already tried in several ways to bring in certain elements of the old SV through both MM and the current MSV.
But as evident by the community(that has an interest in the Hunter class). They arenât succeeding.
I brought up some reasons as to why in my previous replies here.
A 4th spec option, would require a lot of time and work to get right. But itâs essentially the only option if you want the end result to work properly as well as to make those requesting itâs return, make them happy.
And as Iâve said earlier. Not trying to get it in through other specs, will allow those who like the other existing specs and what they are about, to remain satisfied with the designs.
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Yeahhhhh, Iâm not worried about PvP. I want it built and balanced for pve lol. Thatâs the spec/point of it being brought up. ItâsâŠfailures or successes in PvP would be a side note.
Most of what Iâm seeing and wanting is a complete PVE spec from hunters that we used to have.
2 Likes
I actually donât think there should be a 4th spec. I guess itâs fine in an ideal world where developer time and resources are infinite, but they arenât. It doesnât make much sense for a DPS-only class to get a 4th spec, and frankly it doesnât make sense for an entire Hunter spec to be purely melee at all given the established identity of the class and the miniscule audience for a melee Hunter. This is why Iâve been advocating a melee âsubspecâ of BM where picking a level 100 Gladiator-esque talent swaps out your ranged abilities for melee ones (e.g. Barbed Shot => Lacerate) for a damage/health boost.
SV Hunters have an infamous history of playing up the spec to a ridiculous level soâŠ
(X) DOUBT
I actually donât because Iâm never as concerned with PvP and I find it just a little ridiculous that you think removing ranged SV was justified because it supposedly performed badly in BGs, especially given in its last expansion it provably performed spectacularly in PvP (far better than melee SV ever has). So Iâm going off your word for it and I donât trust your word since you pathologically lie and troll about SV at every opportunity. Youâre actually exhibit A of why Survival shouldnât be melee.
3 Likes
We all have our opinions ofc.
Many would probably disagree with you.
Why?
As far as any alternatives goes, the 4th spec option is the best one to avoid any of the current specs to be altered/changed just to fit anything from the old ranged SV spec in.
Why would this most likely be bad?
For one, it wouldnât really give us the spec that we liked so much back anyway. As, in order to give the things needed back to us to make it feel like the ranged SV spec, there would have to be quite a few things that they have to take away from, for example MM. Resulting in the MM spec changing so much that the core of it would no longer function the same.
Many players that currently like the design direction of MM, might not be to fond of those changes.
The same goes for current MSV, and any attempts to make it both melee as well as also making it able to function like the old SV. You canât really combine both playstyles into one spec and expect it to work well.
You would essentially have to cut out aspects from both playstyles and then try to put together what you have left from each spec. I canât imagine that pretty much anyone would like that end result.
There will always be time and work put into the development of new additions in terms of classes. Both new and old ones.
No matter if we can get them to focus on the development of a 4th spec option for the Hunter class or not.
So much time is spent each expansion(as of late), âre-thinkingâ a lot of design concepts for existing specs.
Granted Legion was essentially the first really big push in terms of Spec identities. BfA, was probably meant to be improving on existing specs rather than continuing the past focus on overhauls.
But, some specs saw extensive changes done to them yet again. MSV being one of those. They couldâve just worked on the specific flaws that the Legion iteration of MSV had instead of doing a complete overhaul of it.
Hopefully, theyâll do less of this in the future for existing specs(at least for a few expansionsâŠ).
Looking at past expansions, we have with every second one seen a new class introduction.
Excluding Vanilla as the first of them all, with all new classes.
TBC - no new class
WotLK - Death Knight
Cata - no new class
MoP - Monk
WoD - no new class
Legion - Demon Hunter
BfA - no new class
Next xpac - ?
Is this a guarantee that we will see a new class added? No, not by a long shot.
But, even though we might see one added with the next expansion. This wonât necessarily exclude that we can have work done to an existing class, such as the 4th spec for hunters.
When the druid class got their 4th spec, this was done in the same expansion as when an entirely new class got added to the game. Monks.
Mists of Pandaria Patch 5.0.4 (2012-08-28):
Feral Combat splits into two different specs: Feral (melee) and Guardian (tank).
Now, will this automatically mean that a 4th spec for the hunter class is on the table? No, not at all.
The devs still have to decide that such a change is motivated.
If they(devs) get to this conclusion on their own that it IS motivated to add in that 4th spec option. AWESOME!
But from our end(the community), if thereâs something that we want specifically, we have to tell them what that is.
Preferably, we would also want to provide the motivation behind why we think that any suggested change/addition is motivated.
Which is the whole point of constructive feedback(IMO).
No matter about personal opinions. If we look at the Hunter class as it currently is.
We have:
Beast Mastery - ranged spec that is intended to focus on the fantasy of pets(and pet interaction). By empowering pets, pets empowering you as the hunter as well as calling in additional beasts.
Marksmanship - ranged spec that is intended to play with the âRangerâ-style in mind, with little to no focus on the use of pets(looking at the current design).
The playstyle focus on hard hits and burst.
Melee Survival - melee spec that intends to embrace some elements from the old days where hunters had melee weapons. And build on it even further, to the point where the main focus is melee-combat(the original intent with Legion that is).
Itâs also intended to NOT exclude the use of pets(and pet interaction). It was even a strong headline when they first showed the spec.
Now, that is what the current Hunter class looks like. So, can the addition of a 4th spec be motivated, in terms of class fantasy, spec identity and overall game fantasy?
Depends on who you ask ofc, but as far as objectively looking at spec design and identities. Along with achieving a certain level of game fantasy. I would say that it does.
Not to mention that if we bring the playstyle/design of the old ranged SV spec into the modern game. It could very well be designed to also fill a particular void in terms of what the class is capable of doing.
Iâm here talking about our ability to deal with multiple enemies that are spread out. Heavy cleave, multi-dotting etc.
As for specific spec design elements, again, we have our preferences. Our own wants and needs.
Iâve posted my preferences/design before. But here they are:
2 Likes
As someone who mains a hunter and has played them since Vanilla, I think the hunter as a whole could do with some drastic changes. Below is a what I imagine the class in WoW rather than how it is portrayed as current.
Drop MM as a spec and give it to Warriors as a 4th spec under the Archer spec while dropping any magic shots such as arcane.
Replace it with a 'Ranger spec which is similar to the old SV spec and make it all about nature based magic instant cats shots. Let them be the most mobile ranged spec. One big castable shot such as killshot. Bblack arrow, serpent sting, and passive to buff autoshots similar to the old flaming and frost arrows. Nature based magic dots and procs. Allows more frequent minor healing by using mobility to move to other players and cast minor heals to nearby allies. Lone wolf option. Ability with an âoverwatchâ - Instant cast - summon an owl (or whatever) to fly above the battle area casting hunters mark on primary target exposing weak spots increasing crit chance/dmg taken/insert buff to enemies in the marked area.
Keep SV melee but treat it similar to Feral Druids by making it 2 subspecs. Give it a Aspect of Turtle Spec for tanking. Increase armor by x, gives them Shell cooldown, Roar of sacrifice, etc built in to make them a tank option. Make Aspect of the Moneky the melee dmg spec. No kill command. Bring it closer to legion but substitute the legion trap play with the grenades of BFA. Barbed tips to make your mongoose bites cause a bleed at x stacks procs âcullingâ increasing attack speed and dmg by x% type proc and acts like an execute when below x%. Camo is baseline. Rather than shooting things like current serpent sting, we throw javelins or use a sling for special ranged attacks such as replacing wing clip or binding shot as a ranged slow. Make him an fâing wildman. On disengage, tether small explosive to enemy and upon landing detonate for x fore dmg over x seconds with talent to replace with 'upon disengage let out a lions roar stunning enemies in a small area.
Beast Master stays - donât relly play it so I will let others speak to this.