BFA Ret Pally PVE/PVP Gap & Utility

Classes Paladin
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I am destroying all players in WPVP or random BGs. (Conqueror of Azeroth, honor lvl 55, etc.) I need to work on arenas more atm, but the rep grind is…lol.

In PVE my dmg is better than many of the Cluster’s dps classes, esp in mythics, but in raids, the rankings fall. Every raid in BFA has been overall much more difficult for melee to keep consistent dmg, and I use Word of Glory also. In addition, Avenging Wrath is only as good as the dmg applied so mobility…

When you look at mythic raid world leaders or MDI tournaments, you will never see a ret paladin in the groups. Even in arena where our pvp is supposed to be “wings insanity,” we are not in the highest of world rankings. When people want dps, the last class they think of is ret paladin.

Our single target burst dmg is nothing compared to other melee classes. Our cleave dmg is nothing compared to others - even with empyrean power. Honestly, I am ok with ret paladins not being at the top of PVE charts because I believe paladins should return to their utility nature. But if raid or pve utility is what a paladin models, then our Word of Glory, other off-healing capabilties, raid-wide buffs, or our applied raid dmg mitigators need to be buffed in order for ret paladins to be present in the highest pve content.

Let me know your thoughts. FTA!

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i don’t know what you mean by low cleave. every time a run with outlaw or DH in m+ they complain i kill their trash too fast. allegedly there was a ret running with one of our healers that pulled 800k on a big trash pack. but now everybody gets to have ret burst just lol laser beam essence.

my only utility complaint is that they removed Sac and also we don’t have a misdirect.

right now ret utility super shines in m+ but in raids its a little more situational which I’m ok with. opulence progression double bop in the raid got us a kill and it’s always great to cheeze soak mechanics with bubble.

edit

also I’m not sold that our burst is low. Only class I’ve seen outburst me is rogue when they get crazy procs or maybe havoc destro lock cheeze so if your burst feels weak you might want to check on your opener.

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Why would you look there. That has literally nothing to do with anything even remotely close to what you’re doing.

Your burst is one of the higher bursts in the game, mate.

That’s objectively false.

Ret paladins have some of the most utility in raid of any spec. And in m+, they’re only outclassed in that regard by rogues and DH/monk. Still a large toolkit with good answers to scenarios most specs don’t have.

And Word of Glory is plenty strong. There’s less than 0 need for that to be buffed.

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I agree with you. Your responses are good. Yeah our bursts win but then that’s it. A rogue or DH will beat us in the long run or maybe not if our wings cd comes up again. Even with a big melee box the sustained dmg we will lose to other melee imo

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currently we won’t beat a DH single target but only one class gets to be top dps and it’s currently demon hunter.

we are performing middle of the pack right now in actual mythic boss kills.

as long as it’s not like for hunters in legion where literally every spec was bottom 3 dps by quite a bit on every boss I’m fine.

radiance is looking like a really strong fight for ret to shine at least on myhic. With perfection wings comes up for the adds and you get a full charge from shield of vengeance from the arcane bomb.

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I’ve hit 320k WoG so I agree it can be OP. But that’s because my crit is pretty high at 23-24% and my mast is 37-41% depending on if the raid gear is equipped. 1 percent wisdom is garbage man. And then that’s only on one healer. With most tanks BoK isn’t that great either. More utility buffs are needed. I am throwing Kings on healers nowadays

We have no mobility. And the last 3 BFA raids are all favored for ranged it’s annoying. I sim 32k and in some fights I get close to it. Especially mythic dungeons I know well. But in raids with high mobility the simulation never is achieved. Pallies are in a better dps place than in 8.1 but none of our abilities were buffed in 8.2. Our human racial still is connected to global pvp gladiator medallion.

Lastly as the guy stated above, everyone has burst now with essence. It’s frekin annoying. Essences are going to ruin class speciality and it’s all because people hate being destroyed by a winged pally when in all actuality they can easily cc, kite, and more. Ret paladins need imp mobility , utility, and improve ST sustained dmg. Our cleave needs baseline improvement too cuz wings the cleave without wings is extremely low. And the horde blizz exec conspirators were crying about emperyean power procs in pvp that they nerfed it in PVP in 8.15 lol. Our position in raid and even mythic dungeon as ret pally dps is simming sub par in this raid and the last two raids. Go check the logs for yourself. In dungeons people will easily trade our wings cleave for a rogue’s shroud, monks karma, havics cleave and party buff and much more. All I say go check the high end pve end content logs

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To be frank, Divine Shield, BoP, Freedom, LoH, Kings/Wisdom (as you mentioned), WoG, that’s a ton. And all have seen use this expansion, more than once. Most specs that aren’t yellow on your raidframes would kill for some of those options, and wisdom is pretty big (even though it can’t stack anymore, because that was very stupid)

Well, Uldir didn’t favour ranged at all mate. It limited melee, but melee bloody pumped in the whole damn raid. BoD, certainly, but EP so far is a decent balance. Ranged is doing well, but so is melee, and there’s no too many “Only X melee allowed” mechanics/fights.

Aye, and? That accentuates your burst, it doesn’t cheapen it. It widens everyone’s horizons, comparatively.

Lets look around. Arms warriors, previously they pretty much had to go all in for their AoE burst, because it’s all they had. Now, they can spread their focus out a bit, without sacrificing that one strength they have.

Essences can make a strength, stronger, or they can help shore up a weakness. Doesn’t make your burst any less nuts or strong.

Now, I’m nae gonna fight you on the PvP front, I’ve the approximate amount of knowledge there as a shoe, but in PvE? Ret’s doing damn alright mate. And for progression raiding, they’re plenty strong. And this is the first, if you want to use it as a metric, world first end boss Ret hasn’t been in on this expansion, and that’s not because ret’s in a bad spot.

Azshara’s not nice to melee.

What does simming have to do with relative power in a raid or m+?

Rogues dominate everyone, so that’s not a “paladin” issue. DH/Monk depends on the group comp.

So these aren’t “paladin” issues, they’re not problems with ret. These are problems with some specs being relatively too strong compared to the rest in m+.

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That literally never happened…?

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wisdom is actually really strong. ask any healer that did mythic mekkatork progression. the difference is half mana and oom at intermission. I like that it is a skill buff and not raid wide. On our mythic blocade kill the play was wisdom on monk heals p1 and then swap to the pally healer p2 once the monk was running orbs. its pretty fun.

I’ve checked the logs and we are sitting middle of the pack across all parses in mythic and heroic. mythic radiance is actually looking like a reallystrong fight for ret to shine. we got about an hour of pulls in on sunday on mythic and I was topping meters every pull (but we never got out of intermission with the full raid alive).

i don’t really pvp so i won’t talk about mobility there but if i ever need to move a lot i take double horse on a boss fight although I will say it feels pretty bad if i have to spec out of that.

as far as MDI they always take stupid comps to maximize every chance to get the best score.

You can check my score from last season I was almost 2k score. rogues skips on shrine cost more keys than the rogue was worth. im talking like 18 or 17 srhine. Ret has a great ability to save a bad situation which rogues don’t really have and people in MDI are expected to play perfectly and plan on it so that is why ret loses value in MDI because ret saves wipes or can take pressure off the healer.

there was actually a ret that got to 3k last season maybe higher he was korean so I absolutely think ret is viable for pushing 20+ keys if you know how to play. I honestly think MDI’s obsession with rogues is silly. I have gotten invited to plenty high keys by open minded people looking for a strong ret pally (mostly healers who love my off heals <3)

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I wish I could remember what tier it was it was either suramar raid or tomb. a major patch and all three hunter specs were bottom 3 dps not only in sims but boss fight parses.

I forget how long it took them to fix it but hunters were very sad until they fixed it.

I wanna say it took them anywhere from a couple weeks to a month to get the numbers right.

but yea it definitely happened on one of the patches.

edit

oh yea this is rautha

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Sims have nothing to do with raid, so I never even cared to think on that. But no. There is no patch in legion where all three hunter specs occupy the bottom 8, even. There are two where BM and SUrvial are at the bottom, but MM was top tier in both cases.

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it definitely happened. ask anyone who mained hunter throughout legion.

it was actually pretty alarming and they fixed it pretty quick mid tier so if you are looking through logs you will need to narrow your search to those few weeks.

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I can look at the timeline on logs. It did not.

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oh actually now that i think about it I think they might have fixed it before the new raid opened up. so there wouldn’t be logs possibly. but there were articles about it and everything circulating.

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If it occurred before raids even opened, then it has no impact on how hunters performed in raid.

So who the hell cares.

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people were still farming dungeons and older raids though in that time and you never know with blizzard how long or if they will fix anything so it was actually quite alarming when it happened. method and limit wondering if they even should bother preparing hunters for the new raid or not.

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If it occurred before people were logging, it occurred in the first month of the expansion before raids were even released. You know. That period every expansion where balance is totally shot and they spend the entire first month buffing and nerfing everything

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no it was just before the new raid opened up before they started those logs.

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Yes and if people were “farming old raids”

then it would have shown up in the logs of those raids.

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