One could arguably handwave murdering loyal Horde troops in SOS if you thought Saurfang was in danger, and there was an option to avoid it. But 8.1.5 has 2 new traitor quests for Horde players, that have no option to avoid dishonorable and traitorous actions.
The big one of course is Baine having you murder an entire ship of loyal Horde troops. He calls them “fanatics” but when someone kicks down the door of a military asset and comes in swinging, of course they are going to defend themselves. Plus, the crew is not posing an immediate danger to anyone, Baine just wants to murder everyone on the ship for amoral expediency.
But one that I think people have largely overlooked so far is when Gallywix asks you to kill some weapon manufacturers who went rogue and sabotaged the Horde’s azurite research. You have no option to do as he asks, only the option to traitorously betray him.
But I guess that’s ok, because Horde players are supposed to hate the Horde in BFA right?
A lot of Horde player’s said they always identified with Thrall’s Horde, you know the one with honor/banding together to survive. Sylvanas has always been anti-thetical to that since Vanilla.
I’d also point out even in Warcraft 3 the Horde did fight itself(specifically the last Horde quest in Reign of Chaos was trying to stop Grom). Fighting against the Darker part of the Horde has been a theme since forever.
I’m not sure how anyone can argue that Baine and Saurfang right now represent Thrall’s “honorable Horde”. They’re both cowardly, one defected, and the other decided that his first major action against Sylvanas would… not involve the Horde at all but instead be about assisting Jaina. Like this is best of the honor Horde??? Some of you wonder how Sylvanas still has supporters. Lol pretty freaking easy when the opposition is this uninspiring.
It’s not as easy when you realize your choices are either to murder children and burn innocents alive or moping around in a prison cell and crying in the corner.
Both sides are uninspiring, both come with opposite extremes and neither are appealling. At this point, it simply boils down to picking which poison you’d prefer to take.
Saurfang has not defected, but if you want a comparison Etrigg did the same thing in Blood and Honor and Thrall welcomed him with open arms.
Jaina assisted Baine in his Darkest Hour. Seems like turn about is fair play. Also, Baine has always been about trying to do what is just. Hell, he managed to defend Garrosh of all people during his trials. Anyone else would have been actively adding Tyrande to end Garrosh.
You make it sound like it’s so easy, and the right thing, to be absolutely loyal to Sylvanas. But everyone irl has something they would flat out refuse to do no matter who ordered it and very likely actively work against it in some manner and be a “traitor”.
To me the importance is character consistency, and Baine (and Cairne) have always been like this. Same with Saurfang. Nothing has changed. It’s just that this time there was a direct conflict with their values and they stayed true to them.
The question to me is: what was the best way to handle Baine’s moral dilemma while still looking out for its best interests? Imo it would be to give Derek over to Garona and Voss somehow.
I can understand that. If I was an undercover cop, I’d refuse to murder lots of cops with Baine and Saurfang, even if those cops supported a president I disagreed with.
No offence Zerde but telling us we should be fine with being the baddies is a jerk move. It is as bad as Horde players arguing that the Alliance should be dragged through the mud to make things ‘equal’.
The main antagonist of a faction war expansion for the Horde shouldn’t be the Horde, particularly since it has been the sole narrative the Horde has had since cata and each time it makes the Horde look even worse and degrade even further.
Talking about ‘Thrall’s Horde’ is all good and well but blizzard has at best given it lip service while proving it the lie for years. Between mostly ignoring the Horde’s narrative when it wasn’t being featured or set up as a villain and bending over backwards to either whitewash everything the Alliance does or smothering it in justifications.
At best what your saying is that the Horde has been trapped in a single narrative since WC3 and blizzard hasn’t bothered to have it move on, learn and develop. That isn’t a good thing.
It’s odd for me, I’m with saurfang but I don’t like aiding jaina in any way, especially right after the siege of zuldazar. I’d prefer if baine led us directly to calia and her apparently growing undead preservation society or valeera smuggled him away and Derek chose to go on his own to his sister. As it is it just feels wrong helping her after fighting her, and adds credence to the idea that baine only acts to help (or tries to help considering theramore) the alliance. Im really torn on this one, i almost want both sylvanas and baine to die.
Except the Alliance has been dragged though the mud and I expect it will occur again. To which character, I am not particular sure but signs point to Yrel or Tyrande going too far.
The Horde has been given SOME(as much as it pains me to admit it) justification. Certainly, enough for Sylvanas to convince it to go to war. The Alliance “whitewashing” has always come at a price. Namely lost of places and people we love. If the Alliance should get nothing else from the war than at least it should get the satisfaction it was right. Or at least in the better moral ground than the Horde.
Metzen once said Warcraft lore is Cyclical. Hell the “Cycle of Hatred” perfect encapsulates the idea that WoW will probably keep keep repeating certain themes ad nauseam until the series end(just with different actors). It will probably be WoW’s greatest strength and weakness.
I am sceptical, and frankly Yrel is someone the Alliance can very easily disavow so I don’t see that mud sticking. I would love to see you telling your fellow alliance players its great, particularly if it ends up being pretty much a repeating narrative for you for the next 10 years of the games lifespan.
Wow that must have hurt. Actually admitting the Horde might have some justification?
Frankly I would prefer to lose characters and places instead of them getting villain batted. We lose people too but usually they get killed off for convenience and forgotten or we end up being the ones who have to kill them. There is a reason they have to keep dipping into the Alliance bag for neutral characters and stuff.
Also weren’t you arguing in another thread that you felt the Alliance would come up on top this time? Currently the only named character the Alliance has lost was that Lightforged guy.
That sounds like a cop out, particularly since how the Alliance operates and goes forward with its narrative these days doesn’t match their historical one. When has the Alliance relived through its Arthas betrayal? Or the internal conflicts of the time at the end of WC2?
You like the current status quo so your happy to ignore that the ‘cycle’ isn’t applying to both sides.
If I had to guess why this particular storyline was repeat it would simply be because of Sylvanas. The end of SoO always pointed to another war done the line…the only I didnt expect is it would be so soon.
Some justification, but ultimately I’d say most of those justifications were self inflicted. Regardless, the Alliance not being angels means there were always time when it would cross a line.
That is my hope at least. That at the end of the day those in the Horde that deserve to pay for the crimes in Tedrassil and this war pays dearly. As for who might die next for the Alliance, my guess is Dear Old mama Proudmoore. And I expect Vol’jin will be a loa for the Horde, thus negating a portion of the Horde loses in Legion.
if nothing else our Storyline has been a repeat of Warcraft 1-2. I’d even say Warcraft 3, but the twist being Jaina didnt become a villain. Just because it is somewhat similar doesnt mean it has to be beat for beat.
Based from Alleria vision I expect that is gonna happen sooner or later. Hell, if Bolvar end up becoming a new threat we would have a semi repeat of Arthas.
That doesn’t make it any better. They should have considered that when they did SoO and if they didn’t then it is one them to compensate and work around that issue now in a way that doesn’t screw the Horde narratively.
You seem to want it both ways here. You want to argue that the Horde isn’t underserved in narrative development and build up but that at the same time downplay that. Either the Horde playerbase is getting properly developed narrative and motivation or it isn’t. You cant have it both ways Zerde.
No offense but your basically saying the Horde should get screwed on both fronts. As a horde player and one of the people your hope would screw I can hardly agree that is fair in any way. You want the whole cake and the horde can have whatever scraps you don’t care about.
That hardly makes me see you as someone who really values a fair deal for people on both factions.
Awfully convenient there for you. So when it is horde we get the done deal and its ‘well its cyclical so that is to be expected’ but when it is the Alliance its ‘there is a twist!’
Further where is the WC3 thing? BfA isn’t WC3 like and certainly none of the earlier expansions have been.
I will believe it when I see it. Moreover something tells me the Alliance will get effectively spared any of the moral fallout from that. You yourself posted a thread recently pointing out they went and whitewashed the House of Nobles actions in the rise of the Defias.