So, this panel happened at Blizzcon and covers specifically the how Blizzard ties the narrative process shown through cinematics into the broader Warcraft universe.
I am going to try and write up the panel's information here so that we the storyforum can examine it in greater detail to inform ourselves what the process blizzard uses.
BtS and the Legion epilogue cinematics were being worked on at the same time. Golden joined the team specifically during their creation.
The characters in the epilogue cinematics who had the most screentime in the epilogues were going to be major figures in the next expansion.
BfA intro cinematic is designed to show multiple character's points of view and headspace.
Sylvanas: Jumping from the rooftop to intervene directly is supposed to show us her headspace at that particular moment
Saurfang: His response to the call of "For the Horde" is supposed to show his dedication to his people and rally for their defense.
Anduin: Though he has the capacity for violence, his choice is to be a healer.
BfA is supposed to be a character drama. Spectacle is what Blizzard is normally does, they are trying other options. 2.5d (warbringers et al) is specifically designed to assist.
Each group (pre-render/hi-vis, 2.5d started in concept/creative dev, in-game started in the video department) all started in various separate "siloed", They operate much more as a fusion center now.
This is now the "Story-room" that is to build the broader narrative. It is adhoc in nature. However, as a by product their changes to processes allow iteration to go from weeks/months to days.
Warbringer: Azshara was born from the team wanting to explore using Horror as a medium to tell part of the narrative
Jaina's "Daughter of the sea": Warbringer was designed to connect and move Jaina from her past to BfA start. Dirge idea was inspired by LOTR's dirge. Terran Gregory came up with the line Beware. Sword field is supposed to be a metaphore for tombstones. Necklace was a totem to signify her dad's "tomb stone". The decision for the ferryman to be her father emerged organically.
BfA intro most complex/ambitious
Saurfang's "Old Soldier": Emerged at the behest of game team while BfA intro was in production. Sylvanas warbringer was "critical to the metanarrative of the story." While working on that project, director for both projects (Old Soldier and Warbringer:Sylv) came to the realization that Saurfang would be enraged by Sylvanas' actions. "Its going to be an affront to his honor." Saurfang's past storylines and characterization played into the creation of Old Soldier. "Him being a veteran of all the wars and the loved one's he had lost and the idea of the 'Warrior's Death' as a value in that culture...organically directed us."
Zekhan's role was organically made during this time. In the director's words "Zekhan has become the perfect sidekick/foil/foster son for Saurfang. And I think he has come to embody in many ways what is best in the Horde."
Lost Soldier: Anduin is supposed to be shown coming into his own. They again return to the metaphor of casting the sword down to choose healing versus fighting. "He's choosing his own path, becoming his own kind of king. In lost honor we see him doing it."
Smaller scale adhoc team (all elements from multiple disciplines) also gens up to act like a micro-fusion center, designed to take process from months to weeks. Gets also buy-in from the entire team because multiple perspectives.
As mentioned in Lore Bunker, Alex altered the game flow (removed Saurfang's alpha meeting with Anduin for Lost Honor).
The Plot for BfA was done long ago (including the destruction of the Wold Tree). The story is in the telling, and the telling in the details. Cinematics are used to convey the plot of the story. Jaina's arc is designed to be threaded through the game plot to tell her story. Nightmare is to establish "What Jaina needs." Terran states she needs forgiveness. Game team's plot (Jaina is going to be trapped in a prison of her own mind) gave the cinematic team the decision to frame it as a metaphore for depression. The moments chosen for Thros are all the major Trauma's Jaina has suffered.
The end of 8.0's story for Jaina is an inversion of the events of Theramore (with her father). There she saved her city but paid a price in blood, here she save's the city without firing a shot. It is through the power of her blood (kul'tiran magic) that she is able to summon the fleet. It is to represent her "dropping anchor" in her home port once again.
There is probably things I missed, but I felt it important as we move forward to see this insight in how the team writes story.
Edit: Any virtual ticket holder can watch the Panel on their own under the Featured" section of the Blizzcon Tab
I actually do appreciate the Jaina cutscene of saving Boralus much more now. I failed to pick up on the idea of it being a stark contrast to Theramore in her saving the city without blood. Kudos to Blizzard on that.
Bold move to use metaphor in a an MMO where nuance is kind of ignored in favor of seeing everything.
It is pretty obvious though that (for better or worse) BFA is much of a more character focused story than previous expansions. So while I have my own opinions on the quality and way some of these stories are told I can at least say they're trying to have the story develop and flow more organically.
It is pretty obvious though that (for better or worse) BFA is much of a more character focused story than previous expansions. So while I have my own opinions on the quality and way some of these stories are told I can at least say they're trying to have the story develop and flow more organically.
11/04/2018 09:43 AMPosted by SaiphasBtS and the Legion epilogue cinematics were being worked on at the same time. Golden joined the team specifically during their creation.
The core of the garbage writting, I called it oh sooo long ago. Explains everything tbh.
11/04/2018 09:43 AMPosted by SaiphasThe characters in the epilogue cinematics who had the most screentime in the epilogues were going to be major figures in the next expansion.
Good. This mean my favs are "safe" from this lore debacle.
11/04/2018 09:43 AMPosted by SaiphasBfA intro cinematic is designed to show multiple character's points of view and headspace.
Sylvanas: Jumping from the rooftop to intervene directly is supposed to show us her headspace at that particular moment
Saurfang: His response to the call of "For the Horde" is supposed to show his dedication to his people and rally for their defense.
Anduin: Though he has the capacity for violence, his choice is to be a healer.
Failed execution with all 3 characters post intro cinematic if you ask me. Saurfang literally drops the Horde like a hot potato (which is anything but "to show his dedication to his people and rally for their defense"), Sylvanas so far has stayed far and away from anything that isn´t schemating behind the army and Anduin swings violently between military commander and "muh peacecraft!!".
11/04/2018 09:43 AMPosted by SaiphasZekhan's role was organically made during this time. In the director's words "Zekhan has become the perfect sidekick/foil/foster son for Saurfang. And I think he has come to embody in many ways what is best in the Horde."
Last time I saw fighting for a faction cause of desperation shouldn´t represent what is best for the Horde... especially with such naive basis backing that up (Zekhan is lovely as a naive character, but he IS terrible to be used as some sort of Horde ideal... guy basically doesn´t even know where is he standing).
11/04/2018 09:43 AMPosted by SaiphasLost Soldier: Anduin is supposed to be shown coming into his own. They again return to the metaphor of casting the sword down to choose healing versus fighting. "He's choosing his own path, becoming his own kind of king. In lost honor we see him doing it."
Omg, so "Lost Honor" is supposed to be about the brat? Are the writers deaf, cause a lot of Alliance players are quite annoyed with Anduin and his antics -and the overall weakness exposed for the faction on that cinematic-.
i appreciate your post, i haven't buyed the virtual ticket so i could not see this in detail.
so blizzard do seems to understand what they have done with teldrassil.
they intended to make sylvanas the ultimate bad guy since broken shore.
is that what zekhan is then?
in blizzard own words, they don't think that sylvanas is doing anything good to the horde.
and with the recent cinematic of lost honor, saurfang literally says that she is destroying everything.
Anduin would be trying to "forge his own path" with "healing" so he is actually searching for peace that would be nice.
if it wasn't by the !@#$ING GENOCIDE, okay sorry about that.
let's move on.
i am just in love with what they have done with jaina this xpac,and they do the best they could to redeem her "as a character" (imo she didn't needed redemption) and the way how they explore her, apparently the first intention was to release her from the prison of boralus and uniting kultiras with her. i am glad that they chose this alternative about exploring her deepest regrets and using her mother to connect with her in a really personal way.
We all know her mental state after theramore, i am glad that she is actually starting to heal and surpass the trauma, grow and learn from that and use it that experience in the future. i think that i feel myself identified with her character in some aspects,having regrets, losing things,forgive and even depression but eventually finding strength to move on.
now moving back to anduin.. in one hand i want him to forge his personality.. but i don't think that trying to heal everything is going to let me forget about teldrassil so easily. someone needs to pay for that.
so blizzard do seems to understand what they have done with teldrassil.
they intended to make sylvanas the ultimate bad guy since broken shore.
"And I think he has come to embody to embody in many ways what is best in the Horde."
is that what zekhan is then?
in blizzard own words, they don't think that sylvanas is doing anything good to the horde.
and with the recent cinematic of lost honor, saurfang literally says that she is destroying everything.
Anduin would be trying to "forge his own path" with "healing" so he is actually searching for peace that would be nice.
if it wasn't by the !@#$ING GENOCIDE, okay sorry about that.
let's move on.
i am just in love with what they have done with jaina this xpac,and they do the best they could to redeem her "as a character" (imo she didn't needed redemption) and the way how they explore her, apparently the first intention was to release her from the prison of boralus and uniting kultiras with her. i am glad that they chose this alternative about exploring her deepest regrets and using her mother to connect with her in a really personal way.
We all know her mental state after theramore, i am glad that she is actually starting to heal and surpass the trauma, grow and learn from that and use it that experience in the future. i think that i feel myself identified with her character in some aspects,having regrets, losing things,forgive and even depression but eventually finding strength to move on.
now moving back to anduin.. in one hand i want him to forge his personality.. but i don't think that trying to heal everything is going to let me forget about teldrassil so easily. someone needs to pay for that.
11/04/2018 10:24 AMPosted by Etheldaldnow moving back to anduin.. in one hand i want him to forge his personality.. but i don't think that trying to heal everything is going to let me forget about teldrassil so easily. someone needs to pay for that.
Anduin is a disgrace... is like Cata Malfurion up to 11 (in which universe killing just the enemy commander makes the genocide of civilians a non issue so the r4esponsable party can go scott free?). Why is Blizzard championing all these naive brats, ffs?
11/04/2018 10:24 AMPosted by Etheldaldand with the recent cinematic of lost honor, saurfang literally says that she is destroying everything.
Which IS stupid cause he was like right there on Teldrassil and Undercity... was he blind or was his brain disconnected? One doesn´t need Anduin mentioning that for it to be evident -especially if one is a close advisor and a witness in both events like Saurfang was-...
Ariël, re:LH its more they were focused on discussing Andiun's characterization during the panel, not that he was the sole focus. Also, your point about Alliance players is accurate though incomplete. There are also plenty who are also supportive of Anduin's choices. I am not going to argue if either side is correct, but rather this is highlighting yet again that "New Coke" pitfall with every story choice made.
I have been critical of much of Blizzard's execution, but I disagree with you that Golden is the wellspring of bad writing. If anything, Blizzcon's panel made it evident that this is more more the chorus of multiple voices coming together rather than one single individuals efforts. For instance, the Director for Warbringer had much more impact for both Old Soldier and Warbringer: Sylvanas than Golden did.
I have been critical of much of Blizzard's execution, but I disagree with you that Golden is the wellspring of bad writing. If anything, Blizzcon's panel made it evident that this is more more the chorus of multiple voices coming together rather than one single individuals efforts. For instance, the Director for Warbringer had much more impact for both Old Soldier and Warbringer: Sylvanas than Golden did.
Zappyboi's role seems...strange to me, in particular. About everything else lines up, but why so much focus on him? He's barely had enough focus to represent the good in anything, much less the Horde. Yes he pulls Saurfang out of his depression in a very empathetic way, but that's one moment to 'embody' the good aspects of a faction that is several dozen different things. Including a handful of cultures that are barely compatible with one another.
Looking through this synopsis ... yeah, this is about what I figured was the case. There are some very cool story beats in this expansion (especially the strong parallels to both WC2 and WC3 content), and it is far more character drama oriented than previous expansions.
The issue wasn't the core narrative (at least not on a very basic conceptual level), the biggest issue throughout 8.0 and the pre-expansion content was execution. Beyond the game just feeling rushed, there was a definite feeling of clunkyness through much of the narrative (especially the Faction campaign).
I'm more forgiving of BfA than most people, because I can still see interesting avenues they can take this story (on several fronts); but I'm not going to lie that its been easy. However, 8.1 appears to be a step in the right direction in terms of their ability to tell the story they want to tell (and their ability to rally around fan feedback and complaints to adjust story content to be more palatable). If Blizz keeps taking steps in that direction I honestly do think that we'll end up with a rather serviceable story (even if there are those that wont like its direction).
The issue wasn't the core narrative (at least not on a very basic conceptual level), the biggest issue throughout 8.0 and the pre-expansion content was execution. Beyond the game just feeling rushed, there was a definite feeling of clunkyness through much of the narrative (especially the Faction campaign).
I'm more forgiving of BfA than most people, because I can still see interesting avenues they can take this story (on several fronts); but I'm not going to lie that its been easy. However, 8.1 appears to be a step in the right direction in terms of their ability to tell the story they want to tell (and their ability to rally around fan feedback and complaints to adjust story content to be more palatable). If Blizz keeps taking steps in that direction I honestly do think that we'll end up with a rather serviceable story (even if there are those that wont like its direction).
11/04/2018 10:36 AMPosted by DarethyZappyboi's role seems...strange to me, in particular. About everything else lines up, but why so much focus on him? He's barely had enough focus to represent the good in anything, much less the Horde. Yes he pulls Saurfang out of his depression in a very empathetic way, but that's one moment to 'embody' the good aspects of a faction that is several dozen different things. Including a handful of cultures that are barely compatible with one another.
He became a fan fave meme character, so it seems more like they will develop him into that role as the expansion continues--because people liked him.
11/04/2018 10:36 AMPosted by DarethyZappyboi's role seems...strange to me, in particular. About everything else lines up, but why so much focus on him? He's barely had enough focus to represent the good in anything, much less the Horde. Yes he pulls Saurfang out of his depression in a very empathetic way, but that's one moment to 'embody' the good aspects of a faction that is several dozen different things. Including a handful of cultures that are barely compatible with one another.
I think this is one of the problems/disconnects with the style of narrative they have undergone. They are speaking from a place of authorial intent, which has not translated into the game. They are speaking from, call it a holistic perspective, looking not just from the lens that we the players receive. I think this is a problem however because they have not grounded zekhan sufficiently.
In the panel (something I forgot to remention), they took the "no pauldrons" campaign to seem as validation for their direction for both Saurfang and Zekhan.
11/04/2018 10:41 AMPosted by DroitéThe issue wasn't the core narrative (at least not on a very basic conceptual level), the biggest issue throughout 8.0 and the pre-expansion content was execution.
I'd have to argue Teldrassil at a basic conceptual level wasn't a good idea, it is a constant stick in the gears of Horde's 'faction pride'.
11/04/2018 10:32 AMPosted by SaiphasI have been critical of much of Blizzard's execution, but I disagree with you that Golden is the wellspring of bad writing. If anything, Blizzcon's panel made it evident that this is more more the chorus of multiple voices coming together rather than one single individuals efforts. For instance, the Director for Warbringer had much more impact for both Old Soldier and Warbringer: Sylvanas than Golden did.
She contributed to the disaster with the awful retconns she pulled for the Forsaken in the novella... also her "Lightbound" zombie episode is literally fanfiction made by 12 year olds tier. If she believes she "created" sensible Forsaken she´s plain wriong, those existed already in Vanilla and they never needed an anti-Sylvanas / pro-Calia agenda to exist. The BtS disaster is what happens when you put someone ignorant on a topic to write about it while the aforementioned writer is too arrogant to properly review the story so he/she ends up making up a bunch of incoherent stuff instead.
I know Blizz likes to pretend coherency while writting a story with the previous narrative is constricting their "creative sensibilities", but come on!!
The "teenage drama queen" Sylvanas has always existed in one medium first: Golden´s novels (Sylvanas has always been written as evil, but as a subtle and methodical one; meanwhile Golden always makes her an hysterical brat... and the director from the cinematics portrayed exactly that: an hystericalchild- woman).
They say they wrote this garbage loong ago... it makes things worse cause basically they are telling us they rather give the middle finger to ALL THEIR OWN WORK DONE IN MoP. All the stuff on that expac? Invalidated, was a dream, retconned, garbage. Vol´jins reatment as a character IS a joke now and the Horde a parody of itself.
11/04/2018 10:42 AMPosted by SaiphasIn the panel (something I forgot to remention), they took the "no pauldrons" campaign to seem as validation for their direction for both Saurfang and Zekhan.
Which is silly.
99% of my characters have their shoulders hidden until they get shoulders that will be there more than a week.
Basically all my <120 characters have their shoulders hidden because they get replaced quickly and are usually ugly.
And they took that to mean support for Saurfang? Awesome.
And those retcons would beeeeeeeee...?11/04/2018 10:53 AMPosted by AriëlShe contributed to the disaster with the awful retconns she pulled for the Forsaken in the novella...
I...never got teenage drama queen from either BtS nor the BfA cinematics nor really any of the stuff that has occurred in BfA. I got an "offensive realist" to use a political science term who was ultra convinced of her path, able to articulate what she viewed as needed and take actions accordingly. Maybe it's my background but I just don't see what you see re:Sylvanas.
As for MoP, I discussed this with Kazala, but I think there was even then a disconnect between the themes Blizzard was trying to convey and what the players received. Given Alex's statement about Sylvanas viewing Garrosh as an amature, I tihnk I may be on to something. Garrosh was obsessed over everything "orcish". He was however, unable to get the buy in from others within the Horde to accomplish his dreams of conquest. Sylvanas did, specifically she did not couch things with a racial supremacy vibe, but rather as an entire group. She sought to make each race complicit in the war, and isolated or demeaned her political opposition from having any impact (such as the Tauren).
As for MoP, I discussed this with Kazala, but I think there was even then a disconnect between the themes Blizzard was trying to convey and what the players received. Given Alex's statement about Sylvanas viewing Garrosh as an amature, I tihnk I may be on to something. Garrosh was obsessed over everything "orcish". He was however, unable to get the buy in from others within the Horde to accomplish his dreams of conquest. Sylvanas did, specifically she did not couch things with a racial supremacy vibe, but rather as an entire group. She sought to make each race complicit in the war, and isolated or demeaned her political opposition from having any impact (such as the Tauren).
11/04/2018 10:58 AMPosted by RothironAnd those retcons would beeeeeeeee...?
How apparently they are falling upon themselves cause their bodies are so weak a breeze may destroy them? (That rogue in "A Good War" was doomed since the start, let´s be grateful he didn´t fell to pieces after he landed on the Sentinels...)
How the society is SO facist it makes WW2 Germany look like a democracy (down to burning books and all!!)? Ergo their previous narrative over "freedom" went to the drain.
How only sensible Forsaken will authomatically choose Calia over Sylvanas cause the opposite is an anomaly?
How Sylvanas is a closeted angry teenager PMSing? I mean she has always been evil, but come on!! She wasn´t exactly emotional about it.
The list goes on... go into SF discord and ask Sam and the other bunch of Forsaken fans, they have a lot to tell about that. The book basically made Sam tell "fck oof" to this expac, cause she knew where things were going lorewise speaking for the Forsaken.
Ariël, there are absolutely authoritarian governments with significant personal freedoms, so long as the state is never challenged. This has happened repeatedly both in the 20th and 19th centuries. Hell, this is infact the primary means that authoritarian regimes LAST, when they find the right balance to allow personal freedom without political freedom.
"Makes fascist WW2 Germany look like a democracy."
Saiphas, I remember the book burning, I remember the Desolate Council getting shot which was too authoritarian for my tastes. But uh, when did kristallnacht happen? I must of been asleep for that one.
I need to get out of my coffin more.
Saiphas, I remember the book burning, I remember the Desolate Council getting shot which was too authoritarian for my tastes. But uh, when did kristallnacht happen? I must of been asleep for that one.
I need to get out of my coffin more.
11/04/2018 11:02 AMPosted by SaiphasI...never got teenage drama queen from either BtS nor the BfA cinematics nor really any of the stuff that has occurred in BfA.
You need to go out more into the internet, the Warbringers episode is basically an ode to teenage drama memes... Sylvanas the poster child of this.
11/04/2018 11:02 AMPosted by SaiphasAs for MoP, I discussed this with Kazala, but I think there was even then a disconnect between the themes Blizzard was trying to convey and what the players received. Given Alex's statement about Sylvanas viewing Garrosh as an amature, I tihnk I may be on to something.
Dude, irrelevant. When the boss of the lore team comes out to tell us "lul, your new Warchief is worse than Garrosh!!" he IS telling us the whole plot of MoP and the rebellion "for the heart of the Horde" was smoke and mirrors... you can remove it cause it didn´t mean anything. This "one oportunistic ashole with conqueror delusions will always end up in the warchief position" theme WAS validated and confirmed. By Afriasiabi no less.
Depose Sylvanas, sure. Be prepared for Warmongering Warchief Gallywyx/Geyarah/etc. in 2 expacs from now.
11/04/2018 11:14 AMPosted by Darethy"Makes fascist WW2 Germany look like a democracy."
Saiphas, I remember the book burning, I remember the Desolate Council getting shot which was too authoritarian for my tastes. But uh, when did kristallnacht happen? I must of been asleep for that one.
I need to get out of my coffin more.
The fact these events happened when the previous lore preached in the opposite direction said it all. The way I saw it back then this was done especifically to make Calia the correct choice... and when the correct choice is basically another thing than the original, well, retconn screw up if you ask me.
11/04/2018 11:13 AMPosted by SaiphasAriël, there are absolutely authoritarian governments with significant personal freedoms,
When you go do far as to cut the frewedom on knowledge, you went too far. Forskaen were all about freedom of choice. How can you justify "freedom of choice" with "you can´t learn about previous government!! you can´t research x,y and z!!" etc.?