Also Blessing of Salvation - a threat drop that could be cast of others (though being expected to share it could be a problem). Replenishment. Freedom clearing stuns (and thus affecting even physical stuns).
Plus the buffs that all Paladins could bring that are gone - a wider variety of auras and blessings, mana recovery on striking an enemy (we can still bring that for healing of course), etc.
You write those 3% buffs as being ‘flavour’, but between them they bring +8-10% damage or thereabouts, depending on gear.
At the end of the day, raid leaders wanted Rets in their Wrath raids, whereas right now it’s not that way and DF looks to be more SL right now. There’s not a huge amount of room for melee, so melee specs really need to bring something special and this is even more true in m+.
Yeah I know it’s not all bad, but I would really like half of the more boring talents just changed into something like meaningful utility and/or gameplay changes. I’d be fine not being top DPS if it means I get more new stuff (or good old stuff revamped for DF).
You do realise Paladins are gaining access to multiple abilities and talents they couldn’t have at the time, but will now. And also abilities certain specs didn’t have before too. So its still an improvement in that regard.
Mainly mobility and viability.
But they are far easier content and you keep ask for that design. But perhaps that’s on me for assuming.
I don’t know you. But it doesn’t actually matter to me how good you are. It only matters what you’re asking for.
But yeah I don’t raid, so I’ll take the LFR hero thing on the chin😊. Probably deserve it.
And you’ve not once said what that is, you’ve just made a claim. Perhaps I don’t understand, but you’re right I do like it. Because Wraths AoW proc may as well not exist for Exorcism and they just remove Exorcism cast time. Because that how little it impacts the rotation. Also the AoW on retail, has been that way for the majority of ret existence. And it hasn’t ever been an issue during that time(as far as I’ve seen)
But all that really matters is what we like right? even if we don’t agree.
No longer really revelant much anymore.
More pvp than anything else, otherwise only useful in extremely niche situations.
So basically a stat stick and not for any other reasons?. Well not that I’d mind, I’ve suggested it return before.
But again it can be solved with turning(not that blizzard would ever give ret that kind of output).
Still Ret will bring Blessing of Spellwarding and a battle res. That might be enough to get a spot.
My suggestion to all paladins (as all specs for paladin look trash) is do not pre-order. Do not give blizzard your money. In the games current state there is about a 0% chance its ready for release in November. Delay the game. Cleanup the trees. All specs are in a bad place.
There is almost 0 dev interaction on the beta forums for paladin. They do not care. They will when you stop giving them money.
So 30% dps swings during out only damage window due to ridiculous reliability on RNG is not an issue?
Nor the fact we are required to use auras that provide absolutely no benefit to our raid?
Nor that the DF talent trees literally have no options because we are locked into 29 of our 31 talent points?
Nor that we have new talents that are literally useless as they negatively impact our performance?
Nor that we provide no desirable benefit to a raid/party as we have extremely limited and extremely niche utility with long cooldowns that we find difficulty to even take with the new talent design?
Again, I never asked for that design.
I simply said that AoW providing a choice vs not providing choice is a better design decision.
I have. From lack of choice, layered RNG, encouragement to use the ability suboptimally etc I have said what the issues are.
I even provided a similar example with Elemental Shaman Master of Elements build which forces you to make suboptimal choices be it casting Lava Burst when you don’t really benefit from the Maelstrom generation, or having to sacrifice your MoE proc on a suboptimal ability because your Lava Surge proc was at an inopportune time.
Edit - just to expound a little bit further, this is why mechanics that add additional charges are more significant than their benefit implies. So things like Echo of the Elements, and the same with spriest Mind Blast, the former of which is a meta talent despite not actual being a dps increase in of itself (the cd rate is still the same, so without the interaction of multiple charges it would literally just be 1 additional Lava Burst)
I even provided you an example of how the proc would have been better if similarly to Final Verdict it procced use of an ability outside of your standard rotation (also a benefit of WotLK version). In my opinion AoW should never have procced BoJ, always should have procced HoW (after Exorcism’s removal). Then we wouldn’t have ever needed Final Verdict and the introduced additional layers of RNG.
It’s been that way since Legion. The expansion many Paladins consider killed the spec, coincidentally the expansion that also brought us Divine Steed. Funny that.
It’s not been this way forever, we didn’t have have BoJ pre-Legion.
I put most of that under Viability, the rest is desirability and that’s simply preference.
Well that can’t be healing or rets healing would get heavily nerfed into ground to have it.
? it just procs off melee swings and has been that way since Art of Wars introduction into the game but in WotLK. I don’t see where its layered, unless you’re referring to the Wake of Ashes reset.
You do know that Proc also resets the Cooldown of Hammer of Wrath, not just makes it useable outside of wings. So it useable everytime it procs, not only when its off Cooldown(Unlike the pointless Art of War proc for dps in Wrath)
No there’s no real benefit from the WotLK version in this regard. You simply hit the ability off Cooldown without having to even bother to know if Art of Proced(because its always up), except at the start of fights. Again you could remove the cast time and the proc and the dps rotation 100% wouldn’t change. As you be hit the ability off Cooldown no different than before.
If Exorcism didn’t have Cooldown and just cast time, it would be different.
Blasphemy!!
Did you even played during MoP and WoD? Because Art of War would reset the Cooldown of a dps ability, whether its Exorcism or Blade of Justice is irrelevant.
So it hasn’t changed in that regard for the majority of Rets existence(Which was my point you missed entirely). Also Exorcism and Blade of Justice fill the same role and on relatively the same Cooldown. With Blade of Justice simply replacing Exorcism.
I think it simply come down to you not liking what Art of War Procs and resest currently. If it proc and reset the Cooldown of Exorcism again you’d probably say nothing.
There will always be hopeful optimism when it comes to the idea that things will be fixed and fixes are on there way. The truth of the matter is, and it is sad that this is the truth, that the ‘fixes’ that people think are on the way rarely come and if they do they only slightly adjust the issue in a non-meaningful way. For example, Bolas makes a lengthy post about survivability, and within a couple of cycles Divine Protection is added to retribution. What should have been a feel good moment had its’ parade rained on by it having its’ cd roughly doubled. Why? Can’t figure it out as communication for this class and specialization have been completely minimal at best.
This is the story of Retribution. This specialization is always a foot behind or several behind in some cases to every other viable melee damage dealer. And of course when we give feedback or even try to goad out a blue post, we are neglected. It feels like talking to a wall and when no changes come down the drain, it feels like negligence. If you can’t afford the time to speak on the subjects being brought to your attention by alpha testers and now beta testers, perhaps you shouldn’t be in charge of designing a class or specialization for a multi-billion dollar company? If the best you have is a simple one liner about percentage based damage nerfs or buffs, then you are failing your community, what is left of that community.
Loyalty to a class like this requires a certain type of person and in an era where people are not being brought because of their class and specializations lack of diverse tools that loyalty is tested harshly. The least they could do is give an idea, a snippet of a thought, about the direction they are taking things to try and assuage the thoughts of the paladin community. Holy got some answers, Prot got some answers, but Retribution has gotten? Nothing.
I dont listen to a single word that guy has to say. He kept throwing praises at the first iteratiom of the tree, he calls the 1 min build engaging and interesting and hes one of the few if nt the only one that asked for cons to be a part of our damage profile. So yea idc if hes the best or most known paladin, his views of the spec are as warped as blizzards devs.
Yeah, I remember a post of him on wowhead prior to the talent tree release. Kind of a wishlist. He wanted more downtime for “meaningful decisions” or something along those lines. He may have a deep insight into the spec but he always argues from a raiders standpoint…which not everybody is.
I also left the HoW discord recently because that place is so damn toxic and he is one of those guys that talks down people that don’t share his vision for ret.
Personally I’d say viability is the ability to complete content, which isn’t really a great measurement. Desirability also isn’t simply preference, it’s what determines how valuable you are to a group.
Things like trap talents shouldn’t ever exist, and I don’t know how you can defend them or at least ignore their existence.
Ret already has a problem with desirability and DF makes it significantly worse, when you are already a bottom 3 spec (including other roles) it is a serious problem when they are making your desirability even lower relative to the competition.
It doesn’t have to be, it could really be anything.
The proc has variable value depending on when it resets due to the ability being rotational. Be it how much cooldown is left available or how much HP you currently have etc.
4 pc is another layer as well ontop of the layers it already has.
Of course I know. I think you are misunderstanding the sentiment, the point is that the ability it one that is not used during the standard rotation (outside of wings or execute). Ie both HoW and Exorcism aren’t used outside of the proc during the standard rotation.
We definitely don’t need two “procs off HP spender” abilities really. But I do appreciate the humour.
That’s fair, I was thinking more Cata version. Although one of the bigger differences between AoW in WoD is our damage wasn’t loaded as much into our spenders, and ontop of that Exorcism only generates 1 HP with a slightly longer cd.
When a proc generates multiple resources without an ICD there is more chance that the proc has to be used suboptimally, than when it only generates 1 HP giving you a bit more freedom, and since it had a longer cd (and higher base proc chance) you were more likely to proc it with more time left on the cd.
On top of that, you can check any of my posts in pretty much any thread and I always state Cata base design not really MoP/WoD despite them being extremely similar.
That was one of the big issues with Legion Wake of Ashes that I was glad to see nerfed when it was added baseline. Since it always generated 5 HP 99% of the times that you used the ability you would be wasting HP and using it suboptimally.
I disagree. It’s not the name that is the issue, I’ sorry you can’t see that.
If BoJ was called Exorcism I’d be just as critical of the current design, and you can see this in posts where people have asked for the Exorcism animation to replace it and I’ve said that it doesn’t change the fact the ability doesn’t interact as well.
Again namely due to reduced cd from haste, and the fact it generates multiple HP and is forced to be used suboptimally.
Another day, another lack of feedback or response from Blizzard.
Let’s go! Best spec design in the game, perfection, ship as is. Clearly no changes need to be made.
Definitely solidifying the belief that Paladin doesn’t have a class developer, and that if they do they clearly have never played Ret.
Much better designed specs are still getting multiple passes and we haven’t received a single one outside of “let’s just juggle some talents around and nerf them”.
Dude judgment hits for nothing. My final verdict does nothing. I have to spam WoG on myself which is clearly very nerfed, healing for 6k. Not only is it completely unfun, but im being out damaged and healed by everything. I beat a warrior only because i kept running and healing and I boped and bubbled. Incredibly unfun for both of us. Trash.
This is something Ialways say but many ignore, we are being balanced around always having healing hands all the time. Dont pick that and go selfless healer and see how bad we actually are in 1v1 situations lol
I think the biggest issue right now, is that each spec tree is being developed by 2-3 different people without cross referencing the class tree first.
It’s not:
Baseline Abilities
Class Tree
Individual Specs
Individual Playstyles
Spells Changes
We felt the overall nodes in this tree were in a solid spot and that most of the issues in this tree were pathing related.
Relentless Inquisitor. New Talent, row 9. Spending Holy Power grants you 1% haste per finisher for 12 sec, stacking up to 3/5 times.
Empyrean Endowment. New Talent, row 10. Judgment empowers your next Word of Glory to automatically activate Light of Dawn with 25% increased effectiveness. The effect can only occur every 30 seconds.
All 3 individual specs have:
Divine Toll
Divine Resonance
Relentless Inquisitor
Improved CS (Blessed Hammer is the same thing)
Empyrean Endowment
Divine Protection
AW: Might
All abilities that would be incredibility appropriate for the Class Tree. It almost feels inevitable that we are going to get a very unfinished Class Tree, that makes each spec feel awful to play, that makes each spec feel incapable of “specializing” or “double downing” on any individual playstyle.
God it’s really that bad? I knew there were a few but that’s ridiculous.
The worst thing about that, is that is just the issues with making the spec back to what it currently is. Those are the issues even before addressing the problems inherent with the class that need to be fixed, especially in a world where all other specs are receiving those fixes and benefits on top.
The bad part is that even if they decided to take the common stuff from the spec trees and shove them in the Class tree… it wouldn’t be a good thing.
Why? Because it would make the Class tree even more throughput heavy.
Divine Toll - throughput
Divine Resonance - throughput
Relentless Inquisitor - throughput
Improved CS (Blessed Hammer is the same thing) - throughput
Empyrean Endowment - throughput
Divine Protection
AW: Might - throughput
Only Divine Protection is not a throughput ability.
Though that’s not to say that it can’t be done if they actually wanted to.
I’d Put DT and DR as a 4th capstone.
Delete Relentless Inquisitor.
Bake Improved CS into Seal of the Crusader… or Seal of the Templar after reshuffling the tree, so we could actually take it.
With Empyrean Endowment i’d actually re-instate it into the original Vanquisher’s Hammer and put it against Of Dusk and Dawn or at least DT as a choice node.
Divine Protection should be in the tree in the first or 2nd part of it.
AW: Might… bake it into AW and be done with it, our talents are diluted enough.
Yep, it would literally just mean we miss out on things as we already only have 2 floating points available.
The whole thing is just a joke, it’s been terribly done and there hasn’t been continuity across each of the classes, nor each of the specs.
Like why is Mad Paragon a class tree thing anyway? Why is our class tree almost exclusively throughput?