(BETA) Dragonflight Priest Talent Tree Feedback Thread

Classes Priest
736

Yeah, “some” have…

Are we talking about performances here?
Because spriest is usually present in RWF, MDI and AWC. Sure there is not necessarily huge representation but how many specs can say the same for the whole of SL?

Now if we’re talking gameplay experience, ok I guess?
I’m usually not one to enjoy those “other options” so much personally. I usually like to play one spec in a class and if I’m lucky, I enjoy 2. (Priest being the only case, for me, of 3 specs I enjoy playing) So I don’t really care about those classes who have “other options”. Make the specs I enjoy decent AND fun, is all I am going for.

Now, is spriest fine gameplay wise? I have my own issues with the spec now that others have documented well, either here or in other threads. And blizz doesn’t seem to fix them going forward yet, which I acknowledge is a problem.

Does Blizz need to “fix” shadow? Sure!
Should this be done before every other class gets to have their own trees? Why should it?
Hunters getting blue posts doesn’t mean Priest is being ignored…
Sure, we’ve had a bad history of devs leaving and poor communication, I get that. But it doesn’t mean we should be throwing a tantrum in here.

737

Still trying to grasp at any notion of relevancy I see.

I’ll state it again…

Kettle Black? lol

738

What type of posts are you seeing that are signaling this message?

I have seen an overwhelming amount of thoughtful points being made and an overall sentiment eluding to the sad state Shadow is in… and has been in for I would argue since WoD Pre-patch going into Legion… Others may say later. But it all stated going off the rails once they killed the way Shadow played at a core and basic level for over a decade and since then its been filled with problem after problem with nearly every patch.

This is why the voices are getting more upset and more vocal as to wanting some actual change and not once again wait another 2 years before we board this merry-go-round another time.

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739

Posts like:

Revamp the whole spec NOW, shadow is trash :sob:

Hunters got a blue post AGAIN! While priests get NOTHING :sob:

Shaman trees are out and we, AGAIN, get the worst out of all existing trees :sob:

etc

I wasn’t directing this toward you specifically, nore is it toward people who give actual feedback on why something needs improvement, or people who make suggestions.

I’m just getting tired of the few trolls who derails the discussion toward subjects that don’t impact gameplay. I couldn’t care less about anyone fantasies or whatnot, we need to discuss, more than anything else, if the specs are fun and if there is room for relevant choices to be made to increase said fun.

Most people here are giving relevant feedback or suggestions to fix what they beleive is the issue, and this is fine. But a few people seems to live in the past and aren’t being constructive. If the hats fits, then by all mean put it on…

740

So we can agree that the majority of posts seem to lean on the positive side as far as reception goes.

My only issue is that we all have to acknowledge that this is forum where all types of people from all stages of life can come and express their concerns and ideas. I don’t think anyone be it a individual or a group of people have the authority to dictate who can say what etc.

The best posts get support via likes and deeper discussion, the posts that are lacking will be ignored. That is the best you can do.

I don’t want to live in a world where we have a select group that decides what is allowed to be seen / shown. That is a slippery slope where that eventually leads to nothing but a negative outcome for all of us involved.

Lets engage with the good ideas and discussion and let the fools show them selves to be fools and move on.

That’s what I think anyway.

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741

I do wanna say that while I’m mostly giving constructive feedback as to mechanics and and gameplay, fantasy does play a part in that. When you look at blizzard’s reasons for changing specs in the past, as well as just how many of them function when you play them, the fantasy of the spec provides a very real structure for the mechanics and interactions that make up its gameplay.

Blizzard not knowing what we should be is, in their minds at least, almost synonymous with not knowing how we should play.

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742

Sure sure, I all for free speech and all. But the topic for this thread is “Dragonflight Priest Talent Tree Feedback Thread”. So let’s focus on that is all I’m saying. Create your own thread for complaining about whatever it is that you want to discuss for priest. Don’t Hijack a topic for your own agenda if you will…

That’s true too of course. And while I feel the void/shadow discussion is ok to have, to me, you could just name everything shadow, remove the tentacles, and it would play the about the same.

I don’t think blizz intentions into DF is to redesign any spec. They already have good work into converting existing specs into the trees + designing a new class. No-one said, ever, that DF was a new occasion to completely revamp a spec (gameplay or fantasy wise) that’s just wishfull thinking from the community. And with how their execs makes the timelines for release as short as possible to milk the cow, the devs don’t have all that much spare flexibility on anything.

Now, what we should focus on, imo, is feedback on what they released. That is, current shadow with some extra. “Too much void, I’d like to be able to have a less voidy spec” is good feedback. “I want all the void to be removed” is un-realistic for example.

When you tell those “unrealistic” people that it’s not going to happen, sorry. Then you get the tantrum.

743

No offense but you are pretty much derailing yourself. Most of the feedback has been pretty well said. You can’t blame people for warranting any kind of communication.

And to decide what’s realistic or not, capable to happen or not is also not a fair statement to say.

Imo some class / specs feel incomplete and need some form of comprehensive revamp / rework to bring it together.
Again reworks don’t have to be a full scale, it varies depending on issue evolved.

Nevertheless I don’t want to further add more derail then this on my part so I’ll end here.

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744

Blizzard is on record stating that they changed Shadow from WoD going tin Legion with the premise that they wanted Shadow to “Be the mater of Shadow Magic”. In doing so with the changes going into Legion, they squashed any other “Priestly” type of play with off/spot healing with Holy and removing utility like Purify or making Shields worthless to cast because you simply CANNOT spare any GCD to do anything that didn’t give you insanity (Because of the draining mechanic) which then funneled Shadow into just being a generic DPS that took its focus away at having a more supportive role and looking for moments to use its other aspects of its class and forced it to just cast Shadow / DPS spells.

To me, This is the moment that caused the initial wedge in the class / spec and since then has only gotten more and more apparent that it just does not mesh with with the rest of our utility and support abilities… and even more so now with the Class Talent tree as it really highlights the cracks and unstable foundation the spec has become.

So simply just removing all the void/tentacle aspect of the class and just theme it over with “Shadow” is not what the spec needs in order to be properly fixed / addressed.

We need to get more in touch with the Class “Priest” roots and have the capability to tap into that more supportive role and it being worth it / meaningful to do it.

Shadow was able to achieve this in its entire history until Legion redesign.

That imo is what we need to go back to and focus on that goal of how we can make Shadow more “Priestly” and less of a cultist.

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745

I think that’s really my point, the mechanics the spec has right now are very directionless because they were never tied to a thematic identity, which makes it hard to elaborate or iterate on them when there’s no clear idea in mind of what shadow should be doing and how it should play based on what it is.

Just renaming everything Shadow solves nothing, you’re right. Shadow probably needs far more work than Blizzard are ever going to put in in order to solve its current identity crisis.

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746

Imma say right now I think that while it’d be nice to have more access to those things, I categorically do not want to be a support spec, and the things the priest core has to offer right now are not going to make the dps gameplay any better.

Priest’s roots as a class have always kind of failed Shadow from a dps perspective, and with the removal of the hybrid tax and the idea that every dps spec should feel complete and competitive with just damage (Though obviously still have a decent chunk of utility), that makes it much harder to just “go back to what we had before”.

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747

That statement is more on the “Class Tree” side of things.

Both the Class Tree and Shadow Tree for 10.0 need work.

You are focusing on Shadows Tree and of course I want that change, But I was more eluding to in that statement of mine on the Class side of things.

I like the fact that we had moments of downtime Pre Legion when we could cast another Mind Flay filler… OR we can use a Prayer of Mending, Prayer of Healing, Leap of Faith, Power Word: Shield a friend for dmg absorb or speed boost, same with Feather, Silence, Fear, Horror, Mind Control etc… Where we can actually contribute in a way that is both effective and meaningful but does not have to be a DPS ability. I especially liked using my SW:D To bounce my Prayer of Mending’s. That was always satisfying.

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748

You could do this right now with the current tree by expanding the list of spells which provide insanity through hallucinations. I agree it’d be nice to feel like the flow of my spec isn’t being kneecapped when I’m providing utility to the group, but it’s also still not a compelling replacement for the spec’s dire lack of dps interaction or a working AoE rotation, something I’d argue Shadow has never at any point in the history of WoW actually had. (It was just never relevant prior to legion)

Definitely think we agree on a lot of things, I just worry when people talk about wanting all this stuff back Blizzard are expecting that to be enough to fill the void in the rotation itself. We both know it won’t, but we’ve still gotta say it.

749

Most likely due to the advent of Mythic + scaling which quickly shows the gaps in our ability, yes I agree.

I still think this is just poor design.
Now if we had Shadow Orbs… or reconfigure the way we generate our secondary resource (insanity) to only come from specific sources that have a cooldown (Mind Blast / Shadow Word: Death) then we wont feel so compelled to always do something that requires us to generate our resource without feeling like we are falling behind.

I really think that was the elegance of Shadow Orbs. It allowed us to achieve our optimal DPS loop without really negatively impacting our Support capability other than cutting Mind Flay which we do anyway, so it already felt natural.

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750

Definitely in agreement there, that was always one of the major positives of the way Shadow Orbs worked. I’m not sure it translates perfectly though, six years is a long time and while other specs have continued to evolve along a semi coherent path we seem to end up swapping from one thing to another, only to end up back where we started, and several years behind.

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751

The thing is, though, I think they know what we should be, just their terms are too broad. I think with each spec you can ask two questions: What aspect of the class does the spec specialize in? What mechanics might fit that feeling?

The second question is what’s failing, not the first.

If you ask these two questions about other specs, you come up with obvious answers. Beast mastery? Masters of beasts, therefore damage should be focused around pets, give abilities that the pets react to, give buffs for the pets, etc. Marksman? Master sharpshooters, damage should theme around the hunter, give choice to remove pet, have long deliberate shots/damage windows. Survival? Master of traps, room to make this the more ‘up close’ version of the hunter. Have them fighting right alongside their pet but with tons of melee bomb/trap flavor.

Then you come to shadow. The first question is answered. What does the spec specialize in? They’re the shadow magic masters of the priest class. What mechanically aids/fits that feeling? Uhhhhhh… DoTs cause shadow word pain. They could turn themselves into a shadow! that’s cool! Uhh I don’t know, some kinda shadow bolt stuff? Priest shadow magic has mind stuff, so maybe like they directly attack the psyche? I dunno. Let’s just add another couple DoTs. Just… Whatever.

The design got lost somewhere not becuase they got lost on the theme of shadow magic, but because current shadow is some weird amalgamation of a bunch of different mechanics in combination with each other that are all nebulously ‘shadow’ themed. But to be honest, I don’t even know if Vampiric touch ever even fit shadow when it was designed. Regardless, of that it certainly doesn’t even fit now. You could remove it entirely from the spec and attribute all of the talents that affect it back to SW:P and I don’t know if you really lost much when it comes to gameplay. Especially with Misery being a thing. Maybe you could correct me there, because I can’t claim to be nearly as well-versed in Shadow as you.

I guess the question I’d want to answer if I was designing Shadow isn’t “what’s the idea behind the spec” as much as “what should ‘shadow magic’ actually mean in gameplay terms?” Because as-is it feels really hodge podge.

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752

Pretty much what I was trying to convey exactly. My feeling is that we won’t get anywhere without a significant refocusing of shadow’s mechanical identity, and blizzard working out what it means to be a shadow priest in mechanical terms.

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753

I think the “Vampiric” aspect of Shadow was born initially from Shadowform.

In Classic, The major defining difference that make Shadow separate from Holy/Disc was the fact that it can amplify its damage Via Shadowform (And other talents) but wth Shadowform, it granted additional defenses as well. If we were allowed to also cast healing spells in Shadowform, that would quickly become hard to balance out. So I think they introduced the “Vampirism” aspect in Vampiric Embrace to allow us to heal a bit from the damage we do. Mix Vampiric Healing with Passive Damage reduction and damage absorption from Power Word: Shield and now we got a pretty solid defense.

Now that the Vampiric aspect was apart of Shadow, It seems to make a logical step forward to address our mana concerns with the introduction of Vampiric Touch to “Leech” mana from our shadow damage once Burning Crusade came around.

That’s how I imagine our Vampiric theme was introduced / established. Since then, its just became a thing we kind of always had and so its now a staple in our arsenals of abilities.

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754

Yeah, what strikes me as weird about it too is like… There’s a ton there right now that I think you could double-down into any of it.

Maybe Shadow Priest should be about creating TONS of shadows. Theme into Shadowy apparitions, make the goal to blast as many apparitions out as possible. Allow more ways to directly control apparitions - increase apparition speed - maybe a CD that instantly makes the apparitions travel to the target and explode for AoE, etc. Give ways to reset cooldowns that generate apparitions. Give stuff like the Yogg-Saron idol (only, actually based on number of apparitions, vs number of times you SPAWN apparitions), have your cooldown generate apparitions on ticks, etc.

Maybe it should be about the DoTs. Bump up the DoTs, create ways to spread them, create ways to interact with them via other spells, have ways to extend them. Double down into mastery. Maybe even consume them for bursts. Or maybe consume your other dots to increase duration/damage on plague or even spread it, etc, etc.

Maybe it could be about maintaining void form aka: Legion (Side note: this is probably WHY legion is so well liked by people. Not because it was mechanically a godsend or good for the game, but it’s the last time Shadow had a very clear gameplay style the mechanics all worked toward).

Maybe it could be lean more towards the direct damage style. Void bolt becomes a standard spell, eruption becomes a CD that empowers the rest of your kit instead, Mind Blast becomes our new spender closer to a Warlock Chaos bolt - devouring plague as an AoE spender. Allow MB to cleave off VT, etc.

There’s a bunch of mechanics that could be expanded on already in the class. I think it’s more that they need to pick one and work towards supporting it. Rather than having every style in the class be necessary to play with.

Because as shadow is right now, it feels like the tree is trying to pretend like you’ll make a meaningful choice by picking talents that support aspects - but it’s not a real choice because even if you put all your talents into supporting Shadowy Apparitions or Monomania, you still have to play the Void form and DoT management game. And it leaves you in the same weird spot for gameplay.

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755

I personally loved that addition to shadow. To see a bunch of shadow apperisions fly at the enemy. same thing goes for the mind flay tentacles spawning out casting mind flay. The apperisions from the tier set is pretty cool to see as well.

These abilities that interact with shadowy entities make shadow feel pretty cool from a thematic perspective imo.

Having mind blast to hit really hard like before or being the main spender would be cool. This is something I always feel when playing sp-- why does mb feel so meh in comparison to before. The old sound effect also had nicer punch

Would love to see a visual upgrade to mind flay too. Void torrent blows it outta. The park thematically wise.

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