Beta Design-changes feel like they've made Paladin a clunky fragmented mess

As a Paladin I feel like we’ve been incidentally pummeled into the ground with all these sweeping Class-Design changes.

Sure, for each change I can see the logical argument even if it stings, like with having two Raid Buffs and melee-attack range “looking” strange (we should have gotten a semi-ranged Rebuke though just like DK & DH).

But at this point after getting nerfed-by-association SO many times the Class feels like a severe downgrade in The War Within, I am not excited for the Expansion - I am beginning to dread the Expansion.

(A large attributor to my dread is Blizzard’s war against Addons that they are trying to keep quiet - “There is no war against Addons in WoW/Ba-Sing-Sei”. By the end of the World Soul Saga I wouldn’t be surprised if Blizzard completely removes all support for Addons in WoW.)

Every Spec of Paladin (Prot to a lesser extent) currently feels like an utter mess to play.

Holy has had it’s spells turned completely upside-down compared to how they’ve worked for many years, it’s basically a completely different Spec now and not for the better IMO.

While Ret’s 30-second Wings is “fun” I think it’s very unhealthy for the Spec and will cause Ret a huge amount of Balance issues, plus 30-second Wings is super clunky with their other Cooldowns.

Prot feels fine in general since it’s the most unchanged, but mostly feels terrible when I’m smashing my Rebuke button and it won’t interrupt because the Rebuke-range that I’ve been accustomed to for years is suddenly gone, but BoP & BoSpell-Warding have always felt extremely clunky too, I see no reason it can’t just be the same as the PVP Immunity Talent and replace BoP entirely.

Paladin now has some of the worst Talent-Trees in the game too. Between some Talents getting gutted like with the Rebuke/melee-range nerf, and Blizzard completely REMOVING Ret Aura entirely rather than just the Raid Buff portion, along with awful yet required Capstone-Talents like Dawn/Dusk - Paladin Talents have reached a point that they’re a garbled fragmented mess of garbage.

For example: Now that Ret Aura is COMPLETELY REMOVED Ret now has one of their Class Talents hard-locked into Crusader Aura, which is a +20% Mounted Speed boost that Death Knights get by default, and Ret can’t even choose to not waste an entire Class-Talent point on it.

Paladins now also only have 3 Auras, of which only 1 - Devotion Aura is actually wanted in groups.

Why the heck doesn’t every Paladin Spec have Aura Mastery???

Why as Prot or Ret do I run out of Mana extremely quickly just because I off-Healed my group to prevent their deaths?

Why as Holy do I have almost zero Agency over my Mana or Damage?

Why does Blessing of Seasons and Dusk/Dawn & Seal of Order still exist? They aren’t thematic and aren’t fun.

Why does Lay on Hands still need to incur Forbearance? It has always been extremely annoying to have another Paladin Lay for no reason preventing Divine Shield being used when it was expected. Health Potions heal just as much as Lay and don’t give people a Debuff.

Why does BoSacrifice still hurt so much? It’s now basically become a bad Ironbark that will get me killed if I don’t pair it with a personal Defensive.

“Plenty of other utility” Blizzard says? Most of those have been nerfed into the dirt now or are Talent-Points that we can’t afford to take.
Off-Healing has been severely nerfed as well in general.

At this point I am not looking forward to The War Within at all, I feel black & blue & covered in bruises from getting cleaved by the nerf-bat so many times and it’s sucked all the excitement I had out of me.

At this point I would rather have Dragonflight Paladin back and give up my entire Hero Talent Tree in exchange, I feel like I am losing far more “fun” than I’m gaining in The War Within.

I feel like most of the Community did at the beginning of BFA when Classes felt terrible from the pruning & GCD nerfs and Azerite Traits were the gearing system.

For now I’m going to try and tough it out and still find some joy in playing Paladin, but all these random incidental (and frankly haphazard) nerfs without any improvements to compensate leave me with a very bleak outlook.

Maybe Blizzard will surprise me with a full Paladin-Class-Talent rework, but considering how late into the beta Development it’s getting, and how mediocrely Blizzard have handled the recent Ret & Holy Talent updates - I think it’s much more likely that Paladin will just be a clunky fragmented mess of a Class with very little choice or Agency until at least the .1 Patch, but more likely Paladins will be waiting until the next Expansion.

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good, 4 dps comps are cringe

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You don’t even run mythic Plus, why are you complaining

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i do tho? i dont push keys but i can still recognize that 4 dps comps is a issue. lets exclude an entire subsection of players from one game modes, stop focusing on being op and focus on the entire game

Not even close to any level where a 4 DPS comp would affect you.

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again, i can still recognize issues within the game even if im not doign that content. its a poor excuse to stay ignorant on the state of the game if you dont push.

also this sort of stuff trickles down to lower tier keys. season 1 df was full of 4dps comps for 15level keys. stop being elitist and rude because a im advocating for ret to stop being ez mode

Oh how interesting, you don’t like it when someone condescends you. That’s unfortunate, since you weren’t willing to stop I don’t think I will either. Your opinions hold no value and you only complain and condescend. Id love to see a genuine desire or suggestion for improved gameplay besides commenting negatively on everything

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cool, these things are different. if your that salty and lashing out cause you can put up a valid argument or debunk any of my points in the other thread then thats a you problem.

it’s about respectfully discussing ideas for preferred changes, which you can’t do. Paladin is in a rough state and lots of people expressing their current concerns and presenting solutions for which they feel are viable or should be iterated on in the community.
You vehemently express detest with no constructive feedback.

For example, and I’ll speak to the spec I play, op says the holy paladins spells are tuned atrociously, it’s agency over Mana and damage are non-existent, lay on hands causing forbearance is an issue, Blessing of sacrifice is losing value.
Their post may be a little dooming but I assume they’re looking for ideas that the community may share in ways to improve the concerns ultimately in hopes that the devs may do something about that, but you just hop in here and praise the issues they brought up. Not constructive at all.

A number of solutions have been mentioned for tuning spells including making spenders stronger, and issues with builders and glimmer, which after being constructively talked about the devs have actually done something about glimmer.
Blessing of sacrifice definitely has been nerfed and unfortunately is continuing to be nerfed even further with the loss of cooldown reduction in the class tree. A solution would be to either remove the damage transfer or tune the numbers back to a reasonable state.
The Lay on hands causing forbearance is definitely an awkward mechanic when there’s multiple paladins in a group. Not much to mention about that one besides possibly not having forbearance applied by LoH.

I would really love to see you be a bit more respectful and a bit more constructive. I know you have the capacity and I’m sure you have opinions on what would make the class better. You have expressed discontent with things and I would love to hear what you think should be changed to make it better. I promise I’ll be more respectful if you share constructive considerate feedback

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fair enough

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