Been playing a lot of Warmane WotLK lately. Double wound poison is the way to go, hands down. But this is TBC.
Anyone know the best poison combo for main hand and offhand?
I’m pretty sure it’s Deadly/Instant, or Deadly offhand if you have a Shaman twisting.
Now that’s surprising. Do mobs last long enough to survive sub burst and benefit from 5 stack deadly?
Oh, for leveling? Just instant.
Though Sub is… not great to level.
Double instant
but if you’re like me and red is dead then double crippling. Wound isnt needed yet until people have resili and it takes a little bit to down someone.
People are still getting blown up right now in seconds.
1 Like
If you are leveling sub it depends on what you are opening. If you are opening Ambush, you probably want double instant. If you are opening CS / Garrote (and yes, it is viable to open Garrote solo), you would look at going deadly mh / instant oh. Reason for that is because if you are opening CS / Garrote, you also probably want to bleed with an early Rupture as well. The 2/3 ticking dots add up very quickly and with Sub this is a worthwhile approach.
3 Likes
Solo leveling, just run crippling for solo play until you get shiv then instant main hand and crippling offhand.
Kill times are fast enough that deadly isn’t worth the trouble, especially if you need to gouge for some reason.
This is wrong.
Open Cheap shot get SND up stuff dies way to fast to be messing around with deadly and bleed damage.
Garrote and Rupture is great for pvp situations or elite mobs.
SND is your biggest dps finisher.
SND is your biggest finisher IN RAIDS and going forward for TBC SND won’t even be that as you will very likely be expected to maintain IEA. How many extra attacks are you getting in on a mob that dies in 15-30 seconds? That’s why the bleeds are more effective. Eviscerate / KS are better than SND solo play as well. KS because it limits the amount of incoming damage which in turn limits the amount of downtime you have between mobs. Eviscerate is best on mobs you kill in the 15 second range.
And if you are doing daggers or performing a weapon swap, you are opening ambush because the front loaded damage lowers the amount of time spent per mob. This also lowers the amount of downtime between mobs.
The only time SND is your better finisher, is if you are going to be able to move mob to mob to mob without stopping. That also allows you to take advantage of a talent like remorseless attacks and…you guessed it…ambush. And this brings us right back to “why would I use SND in this situation when a bleed / eviscerate approach is objectively better?” The answer is that you wouldn’t. You would bleed / eviscerate the mob, restealth, take advantage of remorseless attacks, ambush crit the next mob, bleed the next mob, rinse and repeat.
Your entire process shows you haven’t really thought through how one actually levels sub. K. Thanks. Bye.
Fayld, I hate to tell you man, but your post is completely wrong and shows you are just making claims not based on math at all. First, without doing any crazy math, 15-30s is literally the duration of a SND based on combo points used. If your argument is 15-30s isn’t enough time to get value out of SND, then you would never get value out of SND in raids or otherwise because that’s how long it lasts in either location. To get into the math, in 30s with a 2.7s speed weapon you are getting 4.8 extra swings. Using a crit chance of 15% and a base attack of 200 damage and a crit of 400 damage (completely made up for the purposes of this argument), that would give you almost 1100 damage for a 30s fight using relatively low damage numbers. I’ll just end it there, but your entire post is wrong, just letting you know. 
edit: sorry that is just from your main hand auto attacks and doesn’t even include off-hand which just makes this argument even better…
#sigh. Now do the math for the 3 bleed effects and compare it to opening CS and hitting SND.
Let’s just say for the sake of argument that we are popping a 4 point rupture for an uptime of 20s over a 30s fight. Let’s say that my attack power is 800 which is low, but we are doing examples right? .2506 * 800 = 200.48 * 5 = 1002.4 * .3 = 1303.12 over 20 seconds. That damage isn’t mitigated by armor. That damage doesn’t miss. That damage doesn’t get dodged or parried. That damage isn’t subject to the glancing penalty. That is straight 1303.12 damage over 20 seconds on a 4 point rupture that takes 6 seconds to apply (less if you have 8/8 T3 and you crit which you should due to aforementioned remorseless attacks and turns into a 5 point rupture if you use premeditation or open CS which would be .2506 * 800 = 200.48 * 6 = 1202.88 * .3 = 1563.744 over 24 seconds).
The entire premise of your argument is leaving out key mitigators that you 100% are going to have on those extra swings playing solo. You aren’t going to have 5/5 sunders up. You aren’t going to be behind the mob the entire 30 seconds. You aren’t going to be able to avoid dodge, parry, miss mechanics playing solo and facing the mob for at least 26 seconds if you are opening CS and maintaining SND going from mob to mob consecutively.
Your argument is further ignoring the fact that the OP said he is leveling Sub. If I was leveling sub, why would I waste points getting to Imp SND when Imp Rupture provides as much value while not requiring an additional 3 points in the combat tree that probably need to be used elsewhere to make the spec work? He might be able to get away without 5/5 precision, but it is probably worth his time to take that talent. The rest is heavily dependent on the other talents he takes, but assuming at least 31 in sub, it is probably safe to assume the rest of the talents are spread between assassination and combat. Which brings me back to “why waste the points on imp snd when imp rupture is just as good, within the tree he is focused on (and in fact is one of the primary talents taken in that tree), and allows him to place 3 points elsewhere with no drop off in output?”
you can change your argument if you want, but your initial statement was how much value are you getting out of 15-30s of slice and dice… the answer is the same in a raid or otherwise. so either snd is good or it isnt. and yes rupture can miss and consume your energy.
The tears of your foes.
The answer isn’t the same in a raid or otherwise. Whether SND is optimal is situational. It becomes more valuable the longer the fight goes on. On a 15-30s fight, the value SND brings to the table isn’t amazing relative to other options. It is valuable in a raid precisely because you can weave in other finishers while SND maintains steady damage. It is valuable in a raid because you are getting maximum armor reduction. It is valuable in a raid because you are behind your target and not getting parries at all.
That’s not really the case in solo play because you are legitimately having to hit SND at the end of one mob to have it carry over to the next mob. You aren’t weaving additional finishers in. You can’t avoid parries in solo play. Your extra attacks can miss or be dodged. Most importantly, your base damage is lower due to the mob having armor and in some cases this can be a massive detriment to using SND.
As for rupture missing…the skill activation can miss. The actual damage doesn’t. Stop equivocating.
1 Like
Go read any guide
ask any rogue
Go to the discoord of 2200+ pvp’rs
SND is what you’re using while leveling single targeting mobs for questing. You only Rupture if snd is up
As far as leveling goes, double instant is the way to go.
I keep a supply of crippling poison and mind-numbing poison on hand if PvP happens (PvP server).
And every one of those guides would also tell you to level combat. I don’t see your point. The OP is choosing to level sub. The guides aren’t telling you how to level sub. I am telling the OP how to level sub. You are telling the OP to follow a style intended to benefit from combat talents.
To be clear, the OP would probably be better off going into combat over sub because it is definitely easier and more efficient. But that’s not what the OP is asking about. The OP isn’t asking for the best leveling spec. The OP is asking about the best poisons to use while leveling Sub. That requires a different approach than this exact same question if leveling combat because the way you play sub in a solo environment is different.
2 Likes
Fayld is correct.
You don’t have the benefit of huge white damage with Sub like you do with Combat. With combat you SS then use SnD. Evis any remaining points. Combat white damage is vastly better than sub (primarily from precision, dual wield, and weapon expertise)…so as a sub rogue you make up for that by using bleeds.
Bleeds don’t miss, aren’t parried, or dodged. No sense in trying to make your crappy white damage faster with SnD spec’d sub… unless you have a point after rupturing and you have nothing better to do with it.
Yes, it is better to level combat, but there are some rogues who prefer to level sub…especially on PVP servers due to it’s utility (I am one of them). Sub played correctly can actually be pretty efficient for leveling.
1 Like
This topic was automatically closed 60 days after the last reply. New replies are no longer allowed.