Beast Mastery - future improvements[Partial rework]

Classes Hunter
21

It was the example I wrote out earlier:

In that way it avoids further quadratic scaling from itself.

technobabble...

If it had been worded as to buff Bestial Wrath and pet damage at all times (including during BW), it’d look something like this at X Mastery stat:

  • Increases the damage done by your pets and summoned creatures and the effect of Bestial Wrath by 40%.

— Your normally 25% damage bonus Bestial Wrath therefore becomes 35%. Meanwhile, your pets are doing 40% more damage baseline… which then becomes 89% increased pet strength (1.4*1.35=1.89) during Bestial Wrath, up from the otherwise 75% bonus had BW not also been increased.

This boils down to basic product maximization (“Given a sum of X between two factors, what is the largest product possible?”) and why mostly balanced stats naturally hold themselves in equilibrium. (A good test for whether your stats are sufficiently balanced is simply how high one can be stacked before an increase to it would be less meaningful than an increase to another without any threshold/window or mechanical changes to its value.)

Compare the above against the case that an equal DPS value had been given from, individually, the general pet modifier and the Bestial Wrath modifier alone (if the Mastery were simplified to affect only BW or only general pet damage without respect to their multiplicity). The product, then, would be lower, because the two factors would be further apart from each other (7x3 instead of 5x5, for instance).

Tbf, it’s not a huge deal except if/when secondary stats get huge, which won’t likely be the case in SL anyways.

I consider that a problem unless a row is specifically reserved for the purpose of correcting/improving X core mechanic after Y level and those three options are in tight balance.

With SoB the obvious winner in nearly all fights and Chimaera Shot suiting an altogether different purpose, that’s just not the case here.

I feel like this ought to be more fun and applicable to leveling and PvP in general.

Crazy untuned spitballs forthcoming…

Killer Instinct V.2 - Your Kill Shot can now be used on targets below 35% HP and your Kill Shot increases the damage of your next Kill Command by half of its damage dealt.

  • Gameplay goal: Killer Instinct → Kill Shot. Kill Shot makes for a killer Kill Command… which you of course bank as permitted for disgusting AoE burst after focusing down the Inspiring mob in M+ or the pesky yet overambitious caster in RBGs.

Killer Instinct v3: Reducing an enemy to below 35% HP has a chance to generate an additional charge of Kill Command. Successive chances are reduced for a brief time.

Additionally, Kill Command inflicts Predator’s Rush for 3 seconds. Killing affected enemies regenerates 10 Focus per second for the remainder of the duration of Predator’s Rush upon their death.

Again, spitball, but it just feels like these skills should encourage a bit more hype — more to look forward to than just “Wait, if I hold KC for 2 GCDs it’ll deal more damage… (although I still have nothing better to do in ST anyways, so I guess I’ll just waste CS’s KC-CDR?)” or, per your new effect, “Better not KC anything that isn’t afflicted with Barbed Shot…”

22

Ah yeah, true, forgot you had mentioned it.
For some reason I thought you didn’t…

…and looking at this, it’s essentially a combination between the current Mastery-effect we have on live and the old talent Bestial Fury(Legion) which gave us 15% more damage during BW.
The new thing being how it also includes a variable tied to current levels of Mastery.

My original intent was to provide this combined effect by essentially adding that old talent back into the mix(seen in the 50-row above), in the form of Bestial Dicipline.

Having said that, I do like the idea of what you mentioned so I’m inclined to make some adjustments to the proposed Mastery, along with that particular talent(although perhaps the talent can still stay, not sure if having Mastery affect BW damage and then also having a talent which increases it even further would then be too much).

This was my intent with the changes I’ve made to the 25-row.

Chimaera Shot has been moved to the AoE/Cleave row instead.

That new, last talent, is meant to do, well, what these bonus traits/effects we’ve seen in the game as of late for anyone who sticks with Barbed Shot.

And if you go for Dire Beast, you don’t have to play around the Frenzy-mechanic anyway so IMO, it doesn’t need that higher level of Wild Call-procs to feel good(the new design of the talent Thrill of the Hunt also impacting how it feels to play with these choices ofc).

Aspect of the Pack, I did give it another bonus effect but you could just increase the percentage bonus to the proc chance of Wild Call instead.

The reason I added a Haste-component and not the above was because I felt that when you use that talent, the gameplay surrounding Wild Call is okay. It was more the fact that it falls behind the potential of SoB, so I wanted it to have something more.

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I’d argue… just take one or the other, but… yeah, probably could.

Ahh, right. That had slipped my mind.

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PS. Sorry for the long posts! I tend to get carried away in these conversations :slight_smile:

I’ll take another look at it when I get home.

I recognize that I haven’t yet specified my intended goal with each talent row, and what is meant to be achieved, especially in light of the new additions.

In short…

15 - Intended to present distinct choices in terms of your gameplay and overall thematic approach to the spec. My main goal was to get AC out of it to instead serve as a baseline choice(with-little to-no impact on damage).

25 - Same as above, another row of choices that impact your gameplay, although more focused towards the mechanics of Barbed Shot(Frenzy)/Dire Beast as core elements of the playstyle.

35 - Additional depth to gameplay but with more focus on added/extended burst windows.

45 - AoE/Cleave, intent is to have more diversity when it comes to ways to focus on the degree of multi-target damage, and your potential throughput in such situations.

50 - Top row, defining choices in terms of gameplay, but more diverse in nature. As well as with elements of increased survivability(as this is currently an area where Hunters tend to fall behind, other than certain types of damage).

Note that I want there to be some choices that are more or less entirely passive and have no real impact towards changing how you play. Why? There are those who want this.

There are also choices that are passive effects on their own, but they impact your choices in combat and the gameplay tied to the core.

And lastly, choices which are in the form of active abilities to add another level of complexity/management and engagement from the player’s side. Just not as many as we have on live atm.

25

My biggest gripe about BM? (Other than our pets getting stuck in the floor half the time of course…) Kill command is more like ‘Wet Noodle’ command. It needs to be buffed up so its not just more than a focus cost reduced cobra shot. I remember when they evened out BMs damage because kill command was hitting like a truck and was OP in PVP (yup. PVP again ruining everything…) But they evened it out too much. Kill command needs some of its bite back.

2 Likes
26

Fair enough. I would agree, although I think the spec could benefit from a few other things as well, even short-term within the scope of this expansion.

Other than Kill Command damage, anything else you’d like for BM?

@Vitwolfen

Have made some changes to the initial post/suggestions.

All documented in the change-log at the bottom.

Do these sound better?

Anyone who wants to post some feedback(or have questions), feel free to post and I’ll try to answer all that I can^^

27

I think adding a 3rd permanent pet that grants an active to use as well as provide passive dps increase. Could be in place of a talent row easily.

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28

Yeah, these do sound better, imo.

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I admit, a while back I was toying with the idea that something like the Animal Companion if redesigned into what I suggested in the OP, could also be made to allow us to manually call out all 5 active pets at once. And just like the case above they would all benefit from the same effects and perform the same attacks, and the total damage would just be split between them all(however many pets you choose to call out).

I’ve since gone back on that idea as I doubt it would work out that well in the end. Especially when it comes to the “logistics” of managing it while playing and switching pets for different purposes.

As for keeping additional main pets as talent options, I really want to move away from that mindset. The aesthetic and visuals tied to playing with 1 or several main pets is an important part of player preferences when it comes to the spec.
I don’t want that to involve the factor of potential damage benefits(or disadvantages).

Same thing with having a separate active ability tied to it.

30

One thing I was wondering was why Blizzard is so hesitant to take a page from eastern mmorpgs.

Spellweaving or spell combos should have been in game already. At the very least that’s what Talents are supposed to be for anyways. Instead of coming up with new talents/ability, why not weave a different after effect on existing spells; three choice for KC, add a swipe, a bleed or extra damage.

Just identify the core class/spec abilities and design supporting abilities from there.

31

To be fair, spellweaving/-combos and talents are fundamentally different things.

Talents are pre-combat customization, essentially paring down what gameplay can be expected from the player as not to be spread too thematically thin. Within balance, it also allows for those gameplay expectations to align more closely with their gameplay preferences.

Spell-weaving is an in-combat action by which a single decision is produced via multiple steps.

When it requires no compromise or adaptation, it mostly just amounts to bloat. Having to nock a Concussive Arrow, fire it, and then manually detonate it just before it reaches its target, despite still only affecting that single target with a 6-second 50% movement-slowing daze, produces no manipulable advantage over a simple one-button Concussive Shot.

When it does have multiple and competing advantages available from its manipulations, then you finally have something worthwhile, but that’s easier promised than produced.

Still, like you, I’m curious what that could entail for BM. It’s certainly some tasty food for thought…

Out of curiosity, what do you see as the core?

For me, it ought to be use of pet skills, which I’d like to see revamped, but that’s obviously too pipe-dream to be a reasonable starting point.

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Core abilities are what makes a class feels unique. I play bm so my core abilities would be Kc, BW, BS, AotW etc. Talents imo should modify those. Maybe give them some flare or something to build them up into something better.

Having core abilities identified helps with narrowing down designs a lot. Atm it just feels like the team is inventing new abilities without taking a look at what is important to said class/spec.

Whether or not spellweaving/combos are different things, it doesn’t negate the fact they should’ve been an in game concepts already. SFE is a good example of spell combos but it’s way to clunky to use. Spellweaving (has always been to me) something like a core spell having multiple aftereffects?

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33

As in gameplay implications (different directions you can pursue in weaving those spells together)?

Again, unless you have competing options of how to use a skill—and that skill is itself more than just setup for those options—combos will only ever be “clunky” or “bloated”.

Agreed. Most instances of the recent ‘unpruning’, for instance, have been aimed more at rose-tinted hype than anything advancing quality.

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Agreed, and that tends to result in the spec feeling like it lacks depth and ways to, like you said, improve your gameplay and your choices to better adapt to specific types of content and encounters.

As with the example of having a lot of talents provide purely stand-alone abilities with no real attachments to the spec itself beyond the general theme/fantasy of being “wilderness-oriented”.

Well said.

Most of what we got back is pointless and is essentially just a waste of time to focus on. Not saying that all other classes saw perfection to their unpruning. But considering how the class is purely focused on weapon-based combat, both melee and ranged, based on history there isn’t a ton they can do/unprune in terms of damaging abilities unless they set out to also redesign or add new elements in for the old things to actually work on a class-wide level.

As an example…

What’s the point of unpruning abilities if the intent is that they should then just be replaced by something spec-specific once you reach a certain level?

35

I’ve got a box in the back of my mind that just says “Don’t open; you’ll only get mad again”. I’m going to leave my thoughts on this subject in there for now…

I’ll agree, but I think Tainted has actually given a pretty cool clue, even if it may be a bit more of a ‘third option’. Granted, it wouldn’t be anything “returned” to us like wonderful old BM Arcane Shot, Fury Slam, or Primal Strike, but it could at least be… reminiscent.

For instance, let’s say we “brought back” certain capacities in a way that allows for synergies and “spell-combos”.

To facilitate this, let’s add one subtle feature:

  • Some skills are “opened” always on button-down, and “released” always on button-up. (This supersedes existing “activate on button down rules” from addons.)
    • I.e., if I press Concussive Shot but do not release, it’s an ammo type that feeds into my next button. If I press nothing further, and release, it just fires the Concussive Shot as normal.
    • Tap to daze target at ranged. Hold and hit “Trap” instead to, well, make a concussive trap.

Okay, some spitball random ideas:

  1. Concussive
    • → ST daze
    • —> Trap → Hi-Explosive Trap, minus the damage.
    • —> Flare → Fire a parachuted grenade(?) into the air (no shrapnel, just force).
      • Shoot it to make it go off early; else it lands eventually and goes off automatically. Area decreases as it gets nearer the ground while potency increases.
  2. Invoke (take an element from your pet)
    • → Phoenix/Caustic/Savage/Frigid Bolt
    • —> Kill Command → (Overcharges the attack, consuming twice your pet’s available Focus [and, yes, going into a period where Focus generation is absorbed until cleared] for a massive attack.
    • —> Bestial Wrath → (Idk… a druid-style Invocation or such… adds a bonus effect to your BW based on the pet element but reduces its duration and causes your pet to consume some Focus each time you do since it’s buffing your attacks. Great for burst or certain utility, but otherwise no better than a Savage Bolt during your BW)
    • —> Flare (only available to flying enemies) → Idek, man… Bird flies up, readies for divebomb?

Sorry, sleep deprivation is hitting me hard right now, so that list ended up much shorter than I’d hoped…

Anyways, the idea is that if spell combos were actually used well (i.e., opposite to their use in most MMOs, especially—gag—XIV), we could give a sense of Hunters as sort of masters of their toolkit (SV), pet synergy (BM) or techniques (MM), off surprisingly few and uninvasive buttons.

But again, such is easier promised than delivered. I’m sure most games that ended up having forming linear series that at best telegraphed incoming effects for PvP and offered in-the-moment denials really did aim to have true “combos” at first. Making sure each skill feels like a skill in its own right, and each combo among other forking possibilities, is no easy feat.

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36

Hmm…

:upside_down_face:

I mean, fair enough. I’m not a big fan of games that work with combo-styled fighting. Or at least, not a fan of the ones I’ve seen so far. The latest one being…can’t remember it’s name but quite a few streamers tested it a while back.

And, besides, this all sounds like it would amount to quite an extensive rework involving the very fundamentals of class design(or is it only intended to be a part of Hunter gameplay?).

My goal with the OP above(suggestions) is essentially to allow for the spec to get some proper changes done to it to make it feel more worth it in e.g. content, as well as simply providing more thematically distinct and more “involved” options to pick between. Without it becoming a major/total rework of the spec.

Why? Because I think that the devs are quite satisfied with where the spec is, in terms of it’s core theme/design. My hope is that these things are added to give us a bit more to what is already there.

37

I like this and am going to bookmark this, a lot of these ideas sound really good and help flesh out the spec in some areas, I hope the class devs see this and think so too and put it on a planning board for 9.1, because I love this spec, and I want to see it be unique and interesting.

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38

if possible try to post ideas on this thread im tryin to keep it updated for all specs the idea is to have on big post with all the info so we can all give feedback and maybe we get a response

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39

These suggestions are already linked in your topic.

I did not copy-paste all of them, just the link(as it’s quite a long post), but I’ll add them in a compressed state.

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40

Appreciate the kind words. And while I don’t think that we’ll see anything like this in 9.1(any mid-expansion patch), I hope that it can in some way inspire changes in the future.

Especially for 10.0 as that is the closest we can expect bigger changes to be made, in terms of design.

Until then, most likely we’re only gonna see some tuning passes or perhaps smaller reworks to specific elements/powers(like Lego’s).