Surprised it hasnt come up as a point of discussion of horde vs alliance yet. I wonder how you compare horde warriors with windfury to bears who cant benefit from it.
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BoK/fear ward make alliance bear tanks more viable
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“Too bad” he says.
Like epic Dragonhide is bad or something…
/jealous
For a Druid, Damage is our Threat, almost entirely. To hold off a 1k DPS Warrior, the Druid only needs to roughly manage 365 DPS, and that’s assuming both the Druid and the Warrior are holding that DPS level consistently. That really isn’t a tall order if you stack the same kind of consumables and buffs. Druids can rather easily push into the 500 DPS range if they stack everything and spam MCP.
Dead? Naw. It really isn’t that bad since he melees like Vael but without the persistent tics of fire damage. Our 2nd kill had me get the call TWICE, and the Healers just spammed me through it no different than spamming a Warrior. No flask either, I’m broke right now.
Ty, I’ll look at that later. Need to educate myself a bit.
I view Vael as an outlier, because the buff bolsters Warrior Threat and not Bear threat.
As you I’m sure are well aware Warriors have a priority list based on Rage use. HS can be utilized in conjunction with GCD use to augment theat. With unlimited Rage Warriors are never using auto attack but are using HS exclusively. Hence the Sunrazor maximizing HS values for that fight only.
Bears aren’t rage limited. A Bear in virtually every raid encounter can always Maul…extra rage is used for swipe to use GCD’s and enhanced auto attack like Warriors do. However the difference is that Swipe sucks! /wink.
Bear threat doesn’t really go anywhere on Vael as a result. Warriors can gear and abuse that mechanic however to spike threat through the roof.
However with that said, well played Fury/Prot will still out threat Bears, even with MCP, until about mid AQ 40.
I do agree with your numbers though, I just view Vael as a fight that perfectly caters to Warrior rage management, while Bears get little to no gain.
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Also from our own testing/gear the order of threat generation is Wbuffed fury prot warrior> Wbuffed pummeler druid> crowd pummeler druid> wbuffed deep prot warrior > deep prot warrior> fury prot warrior.
Our mt has thunderfury/maladath now, so he is likely much higher on the totem pole now without world buffs
Also, our other raid’s feral has better threat gear. I forgot because he usually stays cat. Again, just swap out weapon for crowd pummeler. classic.warcraftlogs. com/reports/M1aRwKVL37PkNQjx#fight=46&type=summary&source=42
Hard disagree on Bear scaling on Vael. Popping MCP on anything other than Vael does not allow you to face-smash Maul the entire time, even wearing paper thin gear, as you just don’t generate enough Rage from damage taken to spend 10 Rage every 1.6-ish seconds. I mean I can lose my Rage bar on Broodlord and be waiting at times despite his frequent instant attacks, and on Nef I ran dry for extended times more than once, giving me about 55% uptime on Maul.
I don’t think Valarkin was suggesting that bears dont benefit from the the Vael mechanic, it’s just that they dont benefit as much as a 1.3 speed dagger warrior with flurry, Warchiefs blessing and 2000 Attack Power.
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Bingo.
Think of it this way Fasc, on Vael, Warriors have 2 Mauls…1 on GCD, 1 on next attack.
Thats what Vael does for Warriors.
Imagine that Swipe hit nearly as hard as Maul and you get the idea.
Also keep in mind that encounters were designed with Warrior tanks in mind. Vael was designed as a DPS check…and Warriors were given unlimited Rage and alot of great skills to use that Rage.
Bears have Maul…everything else we have is a pathetic and poor substitute for Maul.
What do you mean? Just look at the values of the abilities, the attack speed of the weapons, the stats on the gear.
Calculate the possible damage, add the base threat if applicable, apply the appropriate threat modifiers, divide by the frequency = TPS.
Do that for Bear in their BiS, then do it for Fury/Prot in their BiS. Sorry, bud, but Bear generates more threat. That’s just the way it is.
Read what I said, muffin:
Eskhandar’s Right Claw (with proc) is faster than Alcor’s Sunrazor, and the haste effect stacks multiplicatively with Flurry and other haste effects (such as arcanums, although you don’t use those because of the buff cap).
You would use Thunderfury in your off-hand because of the TPS it generates with its proc and the attack speed reduction, negating the need to use Thunderclap.
I didn’t say that any Warrior is doing that; I said in an extreme example such as that on Vaelastrasz, Warriors can exceed the threat generation of Ferals. Obviously most Warriors don’t do that because the weapon rarely procs and doesn’t benefit from weapon skill, thus requires more hit to use, thus lowering DPS/TPS.
And obviously Vaelastrasz is a notably different scenario than most Fury/Prot Warriors face. While you’re not totally rage starved otherwise, there’s no way you can use Heroic Strike non-stop with an Alcor’s Sunrazor on any other fight and expect to have any rage left for Bloodthirst.
The lack of self awareness is hilarious. You’re talking about using Alcor’s Sunrazor. Do you even know why that is the “best” threat weapon? Because the threat from Heroic Strike is a flat value added onto each Heroic Strike, which outweighs the MASSIVE damage loss.
More Heroic Strikes is almost always more TPS (less DPS) than harder hitting Heroic Strikes.
That’s a really big “when” considering that doesn’t happen yet. Even the top tank parse in the world only hit a max of 1.8k with Bloodthirst.
Your Heroic Strike literally cannot hit 2k with Alcor’s Sunrazor, even in full BiS.
It absolutely does.
pretty sure a warrior using recklessness, switching to defensive stance, using daggers and switching to battle stance to spam execute is going to outperform min maxed feral tank TPS
I mean… the Druid with full world buffs and consumables is going to have insane stats himself if that’s the comparison. If we toss on:
- Rallying Cry of the Dragonslayer
- Warchief’s Blessing
- Dark Fortune of Damage (10%)
- Fengus’ Ferocity
- Songflower Serenade
The bear is full TPS gear is going to be rocking 2,076 AP, 45.31% Crit, with a swing speed of 1.462. These kinds of stats put Maul just shy of 700 DPS by itself… with a MUCH bigger modifier on that than what Heroic Strike or any instant attacks that Warriors have get.
I just don’t see how as your rage spending goes up with the Haste faster than rage income from damage taken. Perhaps I’m just not shedding enough Armor/Dodge, or don’t MT enough BWL bosses, but I get Rage starved from time to time.
I appreciate threads like this, because they are encouraging and I learn lots of new stuff (I didnt know you guys were powershifting consumables, I thought those were just out as a bear).
So, I have had a blast leveling as a druid, and have tanked dozens of dungeons along the way. As I am seeing lvl 60 get closer (55 now), I am thinking that, as much as I like tanking, I probably need to get a healing set and respec to a raid healing spec (I am Heart of the Wild feral/Nature’s Swiftness resto hybrid now). Is that probably still the right move if I want to raid? I don’t really care that much which roles I play in a raid honestly, but getting prebis for both healing and tanking…I worry that I might be making a silly move doing that. I was initially going to go to the trouble of leveling enchanting for that trinket, getting the gold for a warden staff or that DM 2hand armor maul, and a bunch of other pieces to raise my tanking stats. Maybe that is silly though? I love hearing that raiders are using bears, but I am kind of new to the raiding scene, with not a lot of connections or “ins” on how things work. So, I am wondering if trying to sell a niche role will go badly…
What is the right move at 60?
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It just depends on your raiding team. If they need MT, OT, or OT-DPS roles, then Feral is just fine. If they need you to heal, HotW really only lets you have a deeper Mana pool and somewhat more Spell Crit, that’s it. But if they use you offhandedly as sometimes Heal, sometimes DPS, sometimes Tank, then a generic-catch-all spec is probably fine and you just need the appropriate gear for each.
Just communicate with your raid leads and see what they need/want and prepare accordingly.
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World buffs add alot of top end damage to Alcors. You can have over 2500 AP with Diamond flask, crusader procs and MRP, which adds over 300 damage to a dagger. With Death Wish, Sayge, and criticals, you can hit for 1500.
Look at Maitoz, his HS were hitting for 1.5k and his BT were hitting for 2.5k.
Just spam dungeons with your guild and get loot funneled to you. Take all the druid gear. While running, have a discussion with your guild as to what they need. Heals? Tank? Maybe a boomkin for the luls?
Take their advice, spec and gear appropriately, acquire loot, be successful.
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yeah, alcors is straight broken. i don’t know why, it just is. asked my GM if he’d swap TF for threat on that fight when he gets his second binding, he said “not sure, think alcors is better” lol
simultaneously, we use a feral for offtanking in all content
This is the difference between resultant and theory…where rubber meets the road.
Show me a Druid doing 600 DPS on Vael.
Getting over 500 DPS as a Druid means your in the top 5% or 6% of druids currently on that encounter.
Right now, the best Druids in the world are doing 1400 to 1500 TPS on Vael.
Is Vael a threat boost for Druids…yes.
Is Vael a larger, more optimized threat boost for Warriors…yes.
Lets keep this in mind, in terms of R 12/13 BiS geared Bears, optimized for TPS…ie haste librams, stacking hit, MCP use, etc.
MC 300 to 350 DPS, 800 to 940 TPS, by the release of BWL.
BWL 350 to 400+ DPS, 940 to 1100+ TPS, by the release of AQ 40.
With the exception of Vael, show me a Bear anywhere in the world exceeding those values…
Those are incredibly strong TPS values, while retaining the majority of a Bears tanking profile.
But they won’t top a Fury/Prot Warrior maximizing TPS until mid AQ 40. Theory crafting doesn’t alter results. And the results are available in logs currently for all to see.
At least on the Broodlord log I posted above, I was never rage starved and smashed Maul basically the whole time. Turns out getting hit for 5k every 6-10 seconds gives you a lot of rage 
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1002#boss=611&class=Druid&spec=Guardian
The thing is my sheet is based on averages, so streaks of good luck or bad luck will dramatically vary the output for such a short time period. Plus you have debuff application being assumed as up from the very start, compared to having to stack the Sunders or get Nightfall to proc and so on.
I never said it did, but when we’re talking theoretical maximums and you’re placing that against the absolute minority of Druid Tank parses against Warrior Tank parses, notably when we can’t even see all buffs used on these parses for whatever stupid reason, I’m not really interested in waiting around for something to land in excess of 60% crit rate and never fail to land a hit at all in an absolute perfect parse to have this discussion. The top Druid parse right now had an average crit rate of ~30%, and missed 7.3% of their attacks. Achieving 30% critical strike rate after crit suppression is trivial, especially when you look at the gear he was using, which isn’t even a full TPS setup.
The top Warrior parse averaged critical hits of 67%, with his Heroic Strike being 81%.
Sorry but the “show the parse” isn’t going to cut it when our top Druid is in a mixture of defensive and offensive pieces and pulls dice rolls well BELOW his stat averages compared to a Warrior in far more offensive only pieces and pulls dice rolls well ABOVE his stat averages.
There are presently only 1470 Bear Druid parses on Vael.
There are presently only 18633 Protection Warrior parses on Vael.
Just… no.
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