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Did you pug tyrannical the first week? Or the 3rd week? A pug group without brez or lust that attempted a 20 or 21 is only going for completion and if a pug goes for completion then the tank is leaving that key.
I really don’t see why that makes it necessary for your healer in particular to have lust. There are several good DPS specs that have lust.
i play rogue. Have a friend who plays windwalker and one plays warrior. We either have to change our comp or completely limit the population according to the key/affixes. It shouldn’t even be a concern but it is.
Why can’t you just… bring one of the DPS who have a lust? Edit: didn’t see it’s because your set group none of the DPS play lust classes. That’s kind of a self inflicted problem.
I love Rsham now and it’s all I feel like playing in PVE, but I specifically switched to it because it brought the most utility of any other healer. If I agreed to run as part of a regular group I’d be a team player and switch mains, personally.
This is why as a rogue I can’t play with friends. I have to play mage or evoker to actually have friends in m+ 20s
You could also play enhance shaman which is a lot more similar to rogue, has lust, and is one of the most in demand melee specs there is.
Outside of something weird and unreasonable like all Warrior comps or something, I generally see “reroll class” as a poor suggestion to give people. There’s perfectly legitimate attachments people have to playing a specific character, or class/spec. Even another class that is similar is going to have a different aesthetic, identity, feel, even history if they’ve been playing the original character for a while and done meaningful things on it, etc., and that can very reasonably be far less satisfying or enjoyable.
Of course, a solution to this for Lust and Battleres would be stuff like Drums, but Blizzard have been carefully making sure to neuter those as much as possible.
Beyond that of course, the idea of “mandatory utility” is pretty stupid. A class that doesn’t have either Lust or Battleres should bring comparable utility to the group that you can say is equivalent to Lust. Or Lust should be toned down so that it’s useful utility to have in the vein of, say, Mark of the Wild, or Mystic Touch. Not something that warps comps and encounters completely.
With new talent structures, it’d even be possible to allow everyone to trade off something to bring that sort of mandatory utility. I think that’s a worse approach personally, but it IS kinda one of the points of the talent system.
Side story:
I like Kitty, and am good at Kitty. At various points over the years, specs like Assassination, or Subtlety have played fairly similarly to Kitty. I could have easily played those and still kept doing 99%/orange parses, etc. But if at the time you’d suggested to me to abandon that character I actually liked playing, to instead play a character I didn’t like playing and only had as a Bank alt, and for opening lockboxes, I would have told you to go kiss a tree.
If people can’t fulfil their fantasy of being the Rogue, or Mage, or whatever they actually want to play as, they’ll go find a game that does let them do that. And more power to them. It’s on THIS game to ensure they can enjoy playing their desired class in this game if it wants to retain customers.
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Speaking from personal experience, 21s and 22s are fairly easy to time with drums; we played double pally, DH, warrior, DK and stomped pretty much every key. Lust is good, but low level 20s are still timeable, potentially 23s with some solid players.
Side note, drums needs to be buffed back to 25%.
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Affixes like the decurse affix shouldn’t exist. Having a certain spec bring unique utility in niche situations that eases a groups journey through a dungeon is fine. Affixes that literally cannot be mitigated by some comps is bad design. Dungeons are built around 5 people not 20.
Telling people to just reroll or form a Mythic+ team you play with for 8 hours a day just makes you look like a manchild with no responsibilities. Some people play odd or sporadic hours.
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Agreed 100%. Especially since next to no one on these forums plays at the level where they need to worry about it.
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What if 2 out of your dps 3-stack put your brez on your bars? Then you could brez if any player dies, including the tank. Your brez is called Needlessly Complex Wristguards. The warrior’s is called Difficult Wrist Protectors, but it might be better for you and the monk to do it if the warrior wants to wear the embellished wrists.
Well he already suggested rerolling to mage or evoker, I just suggested a different spec.
I do agree though that the change to drums was stupid, and is just another result of Blizzard’s inexplicable love of raid buffs. They are invested in making bloodlust a required buff because the alternative is having to give hunters, shamans and evokers something else.
Just get rid of all raid buffs and bring back drums and this problem wouldn’t happen.
Blizzard did get rid of raid buffs in Legion and it was pretty widely panned as incredibly stupid in a group based co-op RPG.
And this group of five doesn’t know any healers or tanks, thus all dungeons should be done as five dps.
It’s the same thing really…
Also, a healer [technically] can solo afflicted. And you can rotate interrupts on incorporeal.
I didn’t read that as them suggesting rerolling, but lamenting that they are having to play other classes to play with their friends, and that it shouldn’t be a concern the way that it is.
I don’t think they need to get rid of all raid buffs. I think they’d be fine if they were better traded off against each other, or they actually ensured that each class/spec actually brought enough to the table that it compares favourably compared to another class/spec.
But even that’s not strictly necessary. They did toy with the “every raid buff has a consumable alternative that brings it” type thing, and that’d probably be fine too. Except now they don’t need consumables, because the talent system can do that.
THis is nonsense though. First, many of the class design issues explicitly manifest themselves in lower levels/uncoordinated groups, while people competing for the FoS/World FIrst levels can be, and often are, playing in a different meta with different considerations.
On top of that, the experience people have when playing a class is affected at various levels, not just +25, or +30, or whatever happens to be the “high ranges” of the current seasons. Your enjoyment playing the game is affected by the interactions you have with people, how you’re able to respond to the groups you’re in, etc. Even something as simple as spending more time being declined for groups, or having people leave/not apply to your groups based on what spec or class you play is a contributing factor. It can get even more explicit than that.
For example, Feral’s fairly new to being “meta”, and Ferals who’ve played at all levels in the past can recount negative experiences with PuG groups, being accused of being deceptive for not being Boomkin, stuff like that. That sort of thing didn’t just happen at +20 or anything like that, it was much more pervasive than that. You can’t just handwave that as “community issue” either - the “community issue” aspect is a direct result of Blizzard’s actions, not a cause in itself. Those things kinda do matter in an entertainment product.
Finally, “improving your level” or “getting better” is not mutually exclusive with class considerations. Even if you could quantify it well enough to make the case that getting better will improve someone’s performance by 20%, but switching classes will only improve someone by 10%, or something like that (good luck trying to put that data together), obviously getter better AND switching classes remains an option on the table.
It’s a convenient way to rephrase “git gud” and sidestep the actual discussion, and that’s about it.
I played in legion and not having to worry about having 1 of each class was great.
It’s still a cooperative game without needlessly restricting what classes you can invite to your groups.
But not really. Using the example of needing a lust and a brez, those aren’t actually required through +20. Sure, they’re nice, but they’re not essential. If a group fails to time it wasn’t because they were missing lust or brez. At a certain point they may stop being a luxury and be an actual necessity in order to complete the key successfully in time, but that doesn’t apply to the overwhelming majority of people doing keys, whether or not they’re aware of that fact.
It really is a community issue. If people are making class and spec decisions based on metas that don’t actually apply to them and what they’re doing, that has nothing to do with Blizzard. It’s 100% the community not understanding the game they’re playing.
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That’s the same framing as the switching classes vs. getting better argument. Missing a Lust or a Bres may not be the ONLY thing going wrong in a failed run, but that’s not the basis of whether or not people need to worry about it.
Note: You’re changing the framing here compared to what they said. Lust or Bres being “required” is a different situation to whether or not people should worry about Lust or Bres in their comps. People should, even when it’s not required, because as long as it’s a noticeable advantage to the alternatives, it can be a critical factor in overcoming other disadvantages.
THe “community issue” is a direct result of Blizzard’s balancing decisions. It wouldn’t even exist without imbalances, and objectively visible problems in that area.
You can’t create a problem, refuse to address it, then sit back in your chair when people respond to the problem you’ve created saying that it’s their issue. This isn’t even the community supposedly “not understanding” the game; decisions like bringing utility that far outweighs the alternatives, or preferring specs that are performing much better than other specs, or preferring specs that would mitigate worst cases, are all perfectly rational choices to make. Whether they’re 100% necessary choices doesn’t particularly matter. They’re able to advantage themselves; outside of some intristic feeling of “I do it the hard way”, why would people choose to disadvantage themselves?
Right, and it’s one thing if your cooperative utility is something transformative to the feel of what you’re doing. Bringing something like roots and gateways to change how the group plays and responds to mechanics, is a very different matter to pressing Arcane Intellect at the entrance, or pressing one Lust button on the pull.
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It’s fine to think about these things when forming groups. The probably is getting hamstrung by thinking that you can’t have a group without a lust, or you can’t have a group without a brez. For the vast majority of us, we can make those groups and it will be fine, unless it wasn’t going to be fine anyway.
It’s kind of like being concerned about not having a Stradivarius violin for your community orchestra. There’s absolutely nothing that instrument is going to do for you that you couldn’t do better by continuing your instruction and practicing more. A bloodlust isn’t going to help someone in a 15 more than playing better.
It’s the community not understanding the game if they’re not bringing a feral druid to a 12 because the bleeding edge players find them deficient for whatever reason in a 27.
If people don’t understand why the meta classes are meta in the highest keys, then mimic them anyway then they don’t understand the game, and it’s not a Blizzard issue. There are all kinds of reasons why a class might not be effective in a 27 but could actually be a top performer in a 17. The health and damage scaling changes the dungeons and the impact of single target and aoe damage. Utility that may be mandatory up high may be irrelevant lower, and there could be multiple specs that perform as well or better than a meta spec in lower keys, because the meta spec is in the upper keys for a utility advantage it provides, that again, is irrelevant lower.
People mindlessly copying high end meta comps is not at all a Blizzard issue.
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The issue with healers lacking b-res / heroism becomes more apparent when people build comps where it’ll be all non-heroism dps and they expect the last healer slot to be a resto shaman or evoker. This ends up gating you from a lot of keys.
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