Balance druid revamp for Shadowlands is a problem that Blizzard needs to fix, and here's why

[Elynos-sargeras (Elynos)]

ok, boomer

[Pistolaum-illidan]

You said it better then I would ever have, OP.

Its simply that: the eclipse system is a change nobody asked for and very few people liked when they found out about it.

Legion balance was so awesome, with no eclipses and new moon baseline (artifact). This would be super welcomed if it comes back.

[Niasegamain-bigglesworth]

I’d like to go back to the WoD or even Mist’s days for boomkin. We had good hybrid spells to swap to, we had REAL Force of Nature (3 charges on a 30 sec CD, would root, and cast wrath) Great for setting up kills, kiting, and was decent damage to sometimes take over Incar. honestly I would love to see that and SS proc’s come back based off of moonfire crits. balance hasn’t felt the same since WoD. Legion was just starfall and dot everything = boring. In BFA our casting spells hit like someone fanning cool air in your face trying to get SS while melee are in your teeth face rolling getting you to half hp before you can even begin to do damage. Now we are reverting back to a mechanic that takes away freedom to choose how we want to play on top of a builder spender. Go back to the Thyraz days where boomkins had fun. Blizz can make changes but they made the wrong ones so far.

[Riastrad-ysera]

I agree Empowerments are lame, but every version of Eclipse has been worse, imo.

The filler spells just aren’t interesting/impactful enough to warrant so much attention, as presently constituted. It feels like the ‘weight’ of the spec should be in Starsurge/Starfall and the iconic DoTs. So why am I fussing so much over the filler spells? An unfun headache. Just let Wrath be your single-target filler and Starfire be for cleave…

Alternatively they can put more focus on the fillers, but not like this. They could feel more impactful on their own without awkwardly being chained to each other. As mentioned, Starfire used to hit like a boss, but I guess Starsurge has encroached on that space.

[Skire-wyrmrest-accord]

I’m sort of new to raiding in BFA. I’ve got a couple Streaking Stars traits on my armor now and an Arcane Pulsar etc. So I went into a LFR raid to try out Nyalotha and was hovering between #1 and #4 in DPS (cool, but only kinda, since that probably just means the raid’s DPS was low). What was less cool was when I checked the parse and realized how much attention I have to pay to my filler spells when they contribute less to my DPS individually than Streaking Stars, lol.

Why do I have to pay so much attention to which filler nuke I use? It’s so silly. Eclipse, empowerments, the poison we choose is whatever. The problem is that we have to use more than one Fireball to begin with.

I just don’t understand why Blizzard stressed so much over the fact that Balance druids weren’t using Druid Scorch in their rotation. Like, imagine if they were like “Fire mages, we worry that Scorch isn’t being used enough so now you have to switch between Scorch and Fireball so neither of them feel left out.” So weird.

As for PvP, one potential solution is context-sensitive activation. Something like:

Eclipse: Casting 3 Starfires (1 on player targets) empowers Wrath for 10 sec. Casting 3 Wraths (1 on player targets) empowers Starfire for 10 sec. These Eclipses occur in alternation.

This is better, but I still think it sucks that which spell we can cast is based on this system in PvP at all. Like, if I’m in PvP combat I want to choose my spells based on circumstances and not on where I am in my PvE DPS rotation. Balance druids will just be sort of incompatible with modern PvP until they solve for this problem or emphasize DoTs more with talents and spells that better support them.

[Leishaan-azjolnerub (Leishaan)]

@Skire-wyrmrest-accord

As for PvP, one potential solution is context-sensitive activation. Something like:

Eclipse: Casting 3 Starfires (1 on player targets) empowers Wrath for 10 sec. Casting 3 Wraths (1 on player targets) empowers Starfire for 10 sec. These Eclipses occur in alternation.

This is better, but I still think it sucks that which spell we can cast is based on this system in PvP at all. Like, if I’m in PvP combat I want to choose my spells based on circumstances and not on where I am in my PvE DPS rotation. Balance druids will just be sort of incompatible with modern PvP until they solve for this problem or emphasize DoTs more with talents and spells that better support them.

Still the same crap of using a ST filler spell to empower an AoE filler spell, and vice versa. That’s like using 3 Shreds to empower Swipe and 3 Swipes to empower Shred.

If those were the ONLY non-DoT spells of their kind (i.e. no Starsurge or Starfall), I could see it being an effective mechanic, but we aren’t losing those, so it encourages a counter-productive cycle.

[Skire-wyrmrest-accord]

@Leishaan-azjolnerub

Still the same crap of using a ST filler spell to empower an AoE filler spell, and vice versa. That’s like using 3 Shreds to empower Swipe and 3 Swipes to empower Shred.

If those were the ONLY non-DoT spells of their kind (i.e. no Starsurge or Starfall), I could see it being an effective mechanic, but we aren’t losing those, so it encourages a counter-productive cycle.

I agree, the whole system is a mess. If it were up to me, I’d retool basically the whole spell system.

I don’t understand why it’s okay for fire mages to cast Fireball to fish for crits but Druids different buttons, a resource system, and a spender to accomplish the same thing, it’s so silly.

[Pistolaum-illidan]

Yea, there are arguments against empowerment, sure there are. But almost everyone here agrees that the biggest bummer is the eclipse system, so we are better off unchanged then we are with shadowlands changes.

And new moon back into balance normal toolkit, without a talent (that was better then it during the entirety of BFA), would be super praised.

[Graý-onyxia]

@Cyouskin-stormreaver

For Alpha, a lot of this comes down to how much damage Starsurge deals. It’s pretty hefty, especially when it double-dips during CA.

I don’t want Starsurge being balanced around its use during CA. This likely means less damage outside those windows as a way to compensate =( Again, please keep PVP situations in mind.

@Cyouskin-stormreaver

Deterministic means “No RNG.” You know exactly what to expect from your spellcasting.

Extending Eclipses means you’ll be focused more on trying to lining up your Eclipses with encounter mechanics. It’s pretty challenging, but honestly adds a lot of depth to the gameplay beyond raw performance metrics/dps meters.

You are absolutely correct. This is my fault for not expressing myself correctly and using the wrong terms. Eclipse is deterministic in that you can trigger Eclipse after x amount of spells. This is the opposite of a random trigger. However, this doesn’t mean it is an improvement to the current system or that it properly addresses player concerns. I want agency over which spells to cast depending on the situation. I don’t have this choice with Eclipse.

I also don’t find enjoyment in looking at time graphs, sitting on Astral Power for extended periods of time in an effort to “game” Eclipse into situations that demand single target or aoe.

@Cyouskin-stormreaver

If you are over-capping to the point where managing Empowerments doesn’t matter, then as a game designer, there is no point to have Empowerments exist in the toolkit.

I agree to an extent. Empowerments should never have been about “more damage”; they should have altered spells in fun, unique ways. Examples of empowerments that are fun: Empowered spells can be cast while moving, have a chance to daze, stun, root, increased crit, be instant, generate more power etc

@Cyouskin-stormreaver

If you are over-capping to the point where managing Empowerments doesn’t matter, then as a game designer, there is no point to have Empowerments exist in the toolkit.

@Cyouskin-stormreaver

PVP can be better with Eclipse gameplay. It mostly comes down to triggering Eclipse reliably. There are plenty of ways to accomplish that, including “Regrowth reduces the number of casts needed to trigger Eclipse by 2.” (3 casts → 1 cast).

These two comments sort of contradict each other. Reducing the amount of casts required to enter Eclipse would in essence return us to a state where every spell is “empowered”. Isn’t that the argument being used against the Empowerment system?

The new anima power “Leaf in the Water” mimics this behavior.

@Cyouskin-stormreaver

Eclipse doesn’t snapshot. Damage is effectively normalized between Solar and Lunar.

Thank you for clarifying this. I was very disappointed with the Eclipse system in general that I hardly play Balance in the Alpha. It has driven me away from the spec.

@Cyouskin-stormreaver

Starfall tickles out of Eclipse regardless. Our DOTs are fairly weak overall.

This is the problem that should have been addressed with Shadowlands. Instead the focus was placed on bringing back Eclipse. I feel like this was a mistake and Starfall/DOTs are worse off. I can’t cast more than 1 Starfall for example.

Thank you for taking the time to read this and providing us with more detail into your insight. Sadly, I am not convinced the Empowerment system was beyond repair as to replace it with Eclipse =( I also don’t enjoy the Eclipse system at all.

I am not worried about the damage output overall, as I know that will be tuned to be fairly close to other classes. I am concerned with the damage profile and delivery, and the system does not feel good in that regard.

[Cyouskin-stormreaver (Cyous)]

@Graý-onyxia

I don’t want Starsurge being balanced around its use during CA. This likely means less damage outside those windows as a way to compensate =( Again, please keep PVP situations in mind.

I feel the same way. I llke the big damage, but I don’t think it’s interesting to be focused so heavily around a 3min cooldown. I have been able to reach 40sec+ uptime of CA per use…reliably. Not a fan of double-dipping, I gave it a fair shot, but it’s simply not something I like.

(If others like it, that’s fine, opinions can differ.)

@Graý-onyxia

I also don’t find enjoyment in looking at time graphs, sitting on Astral Power for extended periods of time in an effort to “game” Eclipse into situations that demand single target or aoe.

Usually this comes with experience. That’s why I find it enjoyable – you constantly get to min/max as you see more of a fight. PVP, for example, doesn’t get this, but instead they can be tuned that their Eclipse windows are especially devastating.

@Graý-onyxia

I agree to an extent. Empowerments should never have been about “more damage”; they should have altered spells in fun, unique ways. Examples of empowerments that are fun: Empowered spells can be cast while moving, have a chance to daze, stun, root, increased crit, be instant, generate more power etc

It’s a little weird having your fillers allow your spender to empower your fillers, it’s a feedback loop. It doesn’t hold that much depth.

I currently see Eclipse as a pseudo-BFA Empowerments. I think if you renamed “Eclipse” with “Empowerment” you wouldnt notice the difference in core game.

If Eclipse had a fixed during, like in WOTLK, it would feel different. Maybe a smaller window would be interesting?

My grand scheme is aiming for this:

• Full Moon goes baseline and it’s cooldown is reduced by spending Astral Power. Benefits from Blessing of the Ancients.

• Wrath casts generate stacks of Blessing of Elune, and lasts for 30sec.

• Starfire casts generate stacks of Blessing of An’she, and lasts for 30sec.

• Blessing of the Ancients: [Blessing of Elune] + [Blessing of An’she]

• Blessing of Elune: Increases the Critical Strike chance of your next Full Moon or Starfire by 5%. Consuming 3 or more stacks activates Lunar Eclipse for 15sec. All stacks of Blessing of Elune are consumed in the process.

• Blessing of An’she: Increases the damage of your next Full Moon or Wrath by 3%. Consuming 3 or more stacks activates Solar Eclipse for 15sec. All stacks of Blessing of An’she are consumed in the process.

• Lunar Eclipse: Increases your Starfire damage by 20%. Reduce the cast time of Starfire by 8%.

• Solar Eclipse: Increases your Wrath damage by 20%. Reduce the cast time of Wrath by 8%.

• Starsurge: Generates 1 stack of Blessing of the Ancients (prefers Blessing of Elune). (Rank 2 = Generates 1 additional stack of Blessing of the Ancients.)

• Starfall: Deal AOE damage. (Rank 2 = Stacks up to 2 times. Stacks tracked separately/Rolling duration.)

• Celestial Alignment: Gain both Eclipse states. Every 10 Astral Power spent extends the duration of Eclipse by 0.5 sec.

I realize that’s hard to read. But it lets you have control over trigger Eclipse. Eclipse doesn’t extend its duration. Your rotation is pretty fluid, basically 15sec of Solar, then 15sec of Lunar. Throw in a bunch of Starsurges to empower your current Eclipse’s filler. Build enoug hstacks of the other filler and consume said stacks (a bit like Streaking Stars, but not enforced). Pull a Thanos and drop a Full Moon on someone occasionally that can be super-buffed by Blessing of the Ancients, good times.

[Arcanaia-area-52]

Oh my god yes everything you said. I hated Boomkins when eclipse was a thing. It is a pointlessly rigid play style. I love the empowerment system and have loved Boomkin so much since the change, it feels much more dynamic and fun. I am praying to Elune that they revert these changes before launch or I may cry over the loss of my favorite spec in the game.

[Pistolaum-illidan]

Graý and Cyouskin, you guys have very good points. And it’s awesome to see two players that disagree to some extent, but are sharing their thoughts with education and actually listening to each other. This is becoming rare those days.
Good job.

[Skire-wyrmrest-accord]

I think casting Wrath for a while should proc something called Greater Moonrise that makes your Starfire crit 100% of the time, cast faster, and hit 100% harder for a while. When Greater Moonrise is over, you would automatically gain Sunrise for 2-3 seconds. Sunrise would make Wrath instant cast and cause it to add a second or two to the duration of your DoTs.

Starsurge should grant you a couple of seconds of Sunrise or Lesser Moonrise, based on which buff you do not have. If you don’t have either, it should grant you Sunrise. Lesser Moonrise does not grant Sunrise when it ends.

Having both buffs at once grants you Eclipse, which grants both affects, in addition to another benefit: Starfire now also adds to your DoT duration.

Celestial Alignment should give you both buffs – and thus an Eclipse – for 20 seconds, which basically means Starfires that add small amounts of time to your DoTs so you can just spam big Starfires for a while really quickly, a throwback to our old rotation, or have instant cast Wraths for a while allowing us an option for movement heavy boss fights. Starsurge during celestial alignment extends the duration of CA by 1 second for each cast. During CA, AP generation is reduced slightly.

AoEs on single target nukes should be removed by default. Wrath should deal damage to mobs in its’ range affected by Sunfire. AP generated by Wrath should be used on Starfall. Starfire AoE is slow and feels bad in many encounters.

TL;DR: Wrath is the spell you cast mostly for DPS. After casting Wrath long enough (stack system or something), Starfire gets a big buff for a while. If you cast Starsurge, you get 2-3 seconds of the buff you don’t have, even if you haven’t reached full stacks (defaults to Sunrise). After the longer version of the Starfire buff expires, your Wrath is buffed for a couple of seconds, giving you a couple extra seconds on your DoTs and making it instant cast. Starsurge can proc mini-eclipses when you aren’t in CA. Eclipses make Starfire very very good until they expire and make Wrath a mobility option.

[Symbor-moon-guard]

Yeah it’s just very restrictive and it feels suffocating in a way. More dynamic is the right way to describe the Empowerment system, at least in contrast to the alpha build.

[Kurukh-tichondrius]

@Cyouskin-stormreaver

My grand scheme is aiming for this:

• Full Moon goes baseline and it’s cooldown is reduced by spending Astral Power. Benefits from Blessing of the Ancients.

• Wrath casts generate stacks of Blessing of Elune, and lasts for 30sec.

• Starfire casts generate stacks of Blessing of An’she, and lasts for 30sec.

• Blessing of the Ancients: [Blessing of Elune] + [Blessing of An’she]

• Blessing of Elune: Increases the Critical Strike chance of your next Full Moon or Starfire by 5%. Consuming 3 or more stacks activates Lunar Eclipse for 15sec. All stacks of Blessing of Elune are consumed in the process.

• Blessing of An’she: Increases the damage of your next Full Moon or Wrath by 3%. Consuming 3 or more stacks activates Solar Eclipse for 15sec. All stacks of Blessing of An’she are consumed in the process.

• Lunar Eclipse: Increases your Starfire damage by 20%. Reduce the cast time of Starfire by 8%.

• Solar Eclipse: Increases your Wrath damage by 20%. Reduce the cast time of Wrath by 8%.

• Starsurge: Generates 1 stack of Blessing of the Ancients (prefers Blessing of Elune). (Rank 2 = Generates 1 additional stack of Blessing of the Ancients.)

• Starfall: Deal AOE damage. (Rank 2 = Stacks up to 2 times. Stacks tracked separately/Rolling duration.)

• Celestial Alignment: Gain both Eclipse states. Every 10 Astral Power spent extends the duration of Eclipse by 0.5 sec.

Sounds very interesting and keeps both fillers “flavor” different, though 3-12% plus the 20% feel a bit underwhelming for Wrath if you stack the Starsurge’s Blessings during a Solar Eclipse, though sounds fun on a Full Moon.

I’d change Lunar Eclipse to increase crit percentage instead of damage, so you could potentially stack crit to between 20% and 40% for Starfire in Lunar, Starfire crits back to back sound more fun.

Not sure about Starfall stacking, I worry if they end up balancing it to be very low damage high ramp up.

[Gq-emerald-dream]

I’d rather have a situation where Eclipse feels meaningful than adding it back as a sort of maintenance buff.

There are some great ideas in this thread, other threads on this forum, & the feedback discussion in the Shadowlands Class forum.

[Lazurturkey-lightbringer]

I was in a server first guild with many high performance players as a Boomkin in Cata and MoP. If you knew when and how to take advantage of your bar you could do insane amounts of damage. It was a sort of feast or famine spec but with skill you would have more feast than famine.

Of course back then we had things like Hurricane, Mushroom, and Starfall AoE abilities. Ive since gone casual and am not 100% up to speed on all the changes theyre making. I was sort of hoping I would get a Beta invite so I could see it for myself.

[Lazurturkey-lightbringer]

Can someone point me to a culmination of class changes? I can go back and look at all the alpha patch notes but is there a place I can see where Balance druid changes are at currently?

[Mÿt-bleeding-hollow]

Wowhead has comprehensive druid changes

[Cyouskin-stormreaver (Cyous)]

@Lazurturkey-lightbringer

I was in a server first guild with many high performance players as a Boomkin in Cata and MoP.

Is that the real Lazurturkey? /wave