Balance Druid Feedback: The War Within and Beyond

[Fryed-frostmourne]

@Grizzle-eredar

You do realize you’re asking to nerf Balance’s dps because youre lazy right? Do you know how much damage moonfire does overall?

Or else youre asking for spenders to be nerfed for a QoL change.

Another case of people not thinking about what theyre asking for

Merging sunfire\moonfire would mean they would need to merge the damage as well. Its not about being lazy its about design. its bad design to have 2 identical fire and forget abilities that do the same thing with the exception of one being AOE.

Balance druid has a ramp issue merging the two spells into one powerful spell would fix it. Sunfire and moonfire was fine but now with the new ramping system with eclipse the ramp time is too much. Easy improvement to improve ramp while still having it would be to merge these near identical spells. That would leave open to new abilities to be baseline more interesting ones.

[Grizzle-eredar]

@Fryed-frostmourne

Balance druid has a ramp issue merging the two spells into one powerful spell would fix it

It wouldn’t. Half the power comes from the ramp. Which is why i asked if you realized how much damage Moonfire does. You don’t need Moonfire and Sunfire to start pumping off Starsurges and Starfalls.

@Fryed-frostmourne

Easy improvement to improve ramp while still having it would be to merge these near identical spells. That would leave open to new abilities to be baseline more interesting ones.

And the amount of damage that would increase from Moonfire hitting all 10-12 targets in a single button press would take the power out of the finishers.

Report: Mythic+ Season 1

Portion of the “ramp” damage does more than the ST finisher, and the AoE single cast ramp. That damage would jump through the roof if you didn’t have to spend the 5-6 globals getting every mob before you started going.

Thus damage somewhere would be affected. Moonfire would get nerfed, or your spenders would get nerfed.

Not to mention there’s talents out there that extend the duration of Moonfire/Sunfire when entering eclipses, so the ramp is of little concern…unless you’re constantly doing content you’re out geared for.

[Fryed-frostmourne]

Sure, then nerf the merged ability and put the damage into starsurge. I mean i dont really care i just think sunfire and moonfire doing basically the same thing, having no interaction with the kit outside of firing and forgetting is pointless button bloat when our ramp is already too high.

I dont really care what happens math wise, the class devs can figure it out to balance it out. I am just saying moonfire and sunfire are basically the same and i would prefer a new ability instead of 2 of the same spells. Like give full moon or full star fall ability or something interesting to replace one of them. Balance druid is stale as heck with its latest rework i have played it since MOP and i personally dont enjoy its current rework.

Its all my opinion though you can hate the idea of merging them.

[Grizzle-eredar]

@Fryed-frostmourne

Sure, then nerf moonfire and sunfire and put the damage into starsurge.

No, that’s not how that would work. Lol it would just be a nerf to Moonfire to compensate for the QoL of only casting it once. You don’t get your cake and get to eat it too lol.

@Fryed-frostmourne

Its all my opinion though you can hate the idea of merging them.

Then don’t use Moonfire. Use sunfire and just start shooting off your SS and SFs

[Fryed-frostmourne]

@Grizzle-eredar

Then don’t use Moonfire. Use sunfire and just start shooting off your SS and SFs

Yea so we disagree, i think its bloat and would prefer new more interest interaction\ability by merging sunfire\moonfire and making a new spell for the rotation, and you like having 2 identical abilities that are fire and forget and repetitive and bring nothing to the spec.

You are soo worried about damage nerfs with a rework you want to keep the class design boring that is my take on it.

[Grizzle-eredar]

@Fryed-frostmourne

You are soo worried about damage nerfs with a rework you want to keep the class design boring that is my take on it.

I could not care less. I don’t really play Balance all that much. I just know that everyone that throws ideas out like this doesn’t actually think of the outcome.

They plead and plead and plead for something, then get it, and complain it’s worse than it was originally because they can’t think beyond the instant gratification level.

That’s all i’m trying to explain to you.
Now it’s “combine MF and SF into one”
Then it’ll be “our spenders are supposed to hit hard, why aren’t they hitting hard”

You’re trying to fix something that isn’t broken

Edit: for clarification, we can see the changes from SL to DF. People didn’t understand how the flow of Eclipses was supposed to work so they begged for a change. Got the change they asked for and loathed it. And it was exactly as they asked

[Fryed-frostmourne]

@Grizzle-eredar

You’re trying to fix something that isn’t broken

Im not saying its broken im saying its bad game design and class design in my opinion.

@Grizzle-eredar

I just know that everyone that throws ideas out like this doesn’t actually think of the outcome.

Your problem with the outcome was a issue with damage and math which is easily fixed by changes in damage which i wouldnt mind so my point stands that i would prefer them merging sunfire and moonfire.

[Grizzle-eredar]

@Fryed-frostmourne

Your problem with the outcome was a issue with damage and math which is easily fixed by changes in damage

Easily fixed but won’t be fixed. You’re fixing something that’s not broken and breaking something else

[Frëddy-area-52]

I think it would be neat if orbital strike applied Sunfire, moonfire, and stellar flare.

Eclipse is rough to gauge for me, I like the idea of it flavorfully and in keys. But in specifically raid ( I haven’t pvpd much so I couldn’t speak to that) it def feels like it feels off. I will say imo it didn’t feel as bad when we had arcanic pulsar!

Plz add arcanic pulsar back it was extremely fun and rewarding (imo)

I’d solar beam kept the mobs silenced I think it’s cd would be justified…but it doesn’t, definitely feel bad when your in a group with fellow casters and interrupt CDs are what’s hindering or worrying the group for routing

From a flavor standpoint I think bearform is cool as a defensive, but from a practical gameplay loop if that’s how we want to play it can we evaluate the spells we can cast in the form?

I love convoke the spirits. I’m not sure why it’s in ever spec tree and not moved into the class tree to open nodes for design

Those are my thoughts on balance, I may not be as versed a some in the spec but that’s my 2 cents lol

[Ferio-moon-guard]

@Fowlty-illidan

• Finally, an updated set of visuals to this tree would also make it at least look cooler to play.

@Fowlty-illidan

Lunar Calling

If they wanted Lunar Calling to force just a “Moon” themed play, this talent should actually transform Wrath into “Lunar Wrath” with a new visual effect dealing Astral damage - so you’d at least not feel the slug of using Starfire on single target.

As for KotG… I wish the main feature could cosmetically transform Wrath and Starfire into a new vegetation-themed spell while you have the stacks. I just think it feels a bit underwhelming to see just the very end effect, despite being cool. I think the Haranir NPC does have something like a projectile using this vegetation theme.

I strongly agree with the OP, especially the class tree. Admitedly I don’t play every class, but from the ones I do, Druid does have the most frustrating class tree of them all. Probably doesn’t help the fact that it’s the unique case of four different specs with completely different gameplay having to share the same tree.

[Raïsin-moon-guard]

@Ferio-moon-guard

I strongly agree with the OP, especially the class tree. Admitedly I don’t play every class, but from the ones I do, Druid does have the most frustrating class tree of them all. Probably doesn’t help the fact that it’s the unique case of four different specs with completely different gameplay having to share the same tree.

Problem with the class tree is that, regardless of spec, you are SUPER locked into what you need and you have maybe 1-2 flex talent points, where you’ll need far more to get things you want. It’s a big give or take tree.

On the flip side, things like shamans don’t have nearly as much limitation, because any area of the tree can reach another with a bit of work, but talents are flexible for them.

Realistically, the resto aspect of the class tree is what causes issues. You could just get rid of it, split feral/guardian with guardian down the middle, and suddenly the class tree has more flexibility because your defensive rows can be reached between your damage rows.

[Dextructive-tichondrius (Dextructive)]

You’re right, it’s not broken. It worked flawlessly in BfA. My argument is that too much Astral Power, and the Eclipse mechanic, are the problem. I had more than enough power and fun and skill flexibility from pooling two Starsurges that hit REALLY hard. Moonfire, Sunfire, Wrath and Starfire all need to hit hard in their own right. The spec just needs to be slower and have more agency (like it did before the latest iteration of Eclipse). If Starsurge gave Empowerments that could be spent on EITHER Wrath or Starfire with modified bonuses to DoT Procs or something new from spending these resources, Boomy would be fixed; engaging, skillful and fun. You could EVEN then add an “Eclipse” bar that would swing every time you ‘favoured’ one magic type, leading to an empowered finisher becoming Moon or Fury or something else. Sometimes the solution lies in what already existed. With class designs, spec toolkits and PvP in particular, I’d reckon it’s always been the case. Gradual change is always safer and better than wide swings that nobody asked for. MoP and BfA just had different design philosophies pulled off right (Every spec as Jack of all trades .vs. smaller and unique and cohesive but different toolkits). The rest of the xpaks tried to tug and pull and these visions but had imbalanced toolkits as a result of hastely-made un/re/prunings and communicating too little too late in their too limited development cycles.

[Grizzle-eredar]

@Dextructive-tichondrius

You’re right, it’s not broken. It worked flawlessly in BfA. My argument is that too much Astral Power, and the Eclipse mechanic, are the problem. I had more than enough power and fun and skill flexibility from pooling two Starsurges that hit REALLY hard. Moonfire, Sunfire, Wrath and Starfire all need to hit hard in their own right. The spec just needs to be slower and have more agency (like it did before the latest iteration of Eclipse). If Starsurge gave Empowerments that could be spent on EITHER Wrath or Starfire with modified bonuses to DoT Procs or something new from spending these resources, Boomy would be fixed; engaging, skillful and fun

All of this is given to players with the current Hero talents and them changing Eclipses from rotating to allowing you to choose which eclipse you want and when you want it

[Dextructive-tichondrius (Dextructive)]

That’s not the point. The ramp-up is still there (DoT x2-3, Spend AP as to not overcap, Builder x2), and so is the lock-in (15sec). The rotation forces you to spend multiple Global Cooldowns to reach maximum burst potential. That makes the spec one of the SLOWEST to initiate, therefore weakest, in the current design and meta, in PvP in particular. When a boss flies off, or when you need to swap targets, or when you are Crowd Controlled, or when the enemy team is dispelled… In all of those scenarios, you need to re-start by re-dotting every relevant target, then either you’re in the wrong Eclipse, or need to get in an Eclipse again by casting the opposite spell twice – which breaks your ability usage for the desired damage profile (Considerations of Singletarget vs AoE or Spellschool to bait interrupts). Eclipse just has to go because it’s too clunky, outdated, and deterministic. It’s a constraint on the player input from the outside (the inside of the system). Rather than “asking” you as the player/agent (what ability should I press now to get the effect that I need for the situation – which Empowerments did MUCH better though not perfectly), the game with Eclipse “TELLS” you EXACTLY what you need to press. There’s nothing more boring than that in an RPG setting, and nothing less reliable.

[Grizzle-eredar]

@Dextructive-tichondrius

That’s not the point.

Then why did you bring up all those points?..lol seems like that was exactly the point and it was easily debunked.

@Dextructive-tichondrius

Eclipse just has to go because it’s too clunky, outdated, and deterministic.

It’s not clunky, nor outdated (or every other aspect of WoW needs to go due to the same reasonings), and determinstic is a good thing. Most people despise RNG proc based playstyles.

@Dextructive-tichondrius

the game with Eclipse “TELLS” you EXACTLY what you need to press. There’s nothing more boring than that in an RPG setting, and nothing less reliable.

You set yourself up with said eclipses for the situation you’re in, or about to put yourself in. That’s player agency right there. The fact that you can get full powered AoE spender while in ST eclipse state is another bonus.

@Dextructive-tichondrius

The rotation forces you to spend multiple Global Cooldowns to reach maximum burst potential. That makes the spec one of the SLOWEST to initiate

It’s not the only spec that has this ramp up time, you know that right?
And let’s not forget that the damage of these ramp up abilities/GCD’s contributes A LOT over the course of encounters.

[Dextructive-tichondrius (Dextructive)]

Fair enough. I’m not claiming the spec doesn’t work. Only that it doesn’t feel as responsive, fluid, tactile or fun as it did before this latest version of Eclipse. Especially in PvP. We should be given more options at the very least… e.g. a talent for shorter eclipses, or at least an opposite version of Lunar Calling.

Ideally, though, I’d want neither. I want a refined version of Empowerments…

My suggestion is essentially:

• Buff all the ability damage and add even more Crit and Mastery benefits over Haste. Moonfire and Sunfire remain core, but COULD be combined into one spell maybe, let’s call that Stellar Flare – perhaps to be taken with another option such as Mushroom or even Goldrinn’s Fang that would spread it.
• Starsurge should be JUST like it was in BfA - always cost 40 AP, but hit MUCH harder.
• Starsurge Grants (3?) Stacks of [Astral Empowerment] to be used on EITHER Wrath, or Starfire. Spending more stacks on one over the other will move the “Eclipse” bar X points over to the side that will transform the “finisher” Ability - Fury of Elune or Full Moon.
• Starfall should be simpler again - Cost 60, NOT Stack, but ramp-up DoT damage while active and cause Starsurge to cleave out Goldrinn Fangs if hits an affected target.
• Wild Mushroom could even be a large, re/placeable aura akin to Efflorescence that would deal damage, slow, generate AP, even leech shielding to the Druid and its allies. Any of these effects could be interesting, if they were tuned to be low but impactful enough.
• Perhaps Denizens of the Dream could become an on-use ability alternative to Treants under Elune’s Chosen.
• Elune’s Chosen should be passively tankier and grant an instant Moon-like AP spender with a long-ish CD.
• Keeper of the Grove should turn CA/Incarnation into a Keeper or Dryad (cosmetic selection?) form that has increased movement speed and poisons and leeches off spells.

These are just examples… But my point is a lot more CAN be done to increase variety and agency in the rotation. I’ve seen posts better than my own suggestions in the past… It’s just up to creatively inquire, build, and test systems.

The problem with Boomy right now is it’s just a cycle between TRYING to:

• DoT all the targets x2-3…
• x2 of the opposite spell…
• X sec spamming surge
• Y sec spamming filler/builder
• repeat

It’s BOOOORING
and good luck getting it off in PvP while two melees are bashing you with instant full burst lol
“Boomkin has so many instants” is the usual claim people make for its strength…
StiBut it’s ll too weak spread damage on time, and doesn’t have enough instant-control and mobility freedoms to kite or deter ANYTHING. Also goes for other casters, because we have no real shield.
Ranged? With PETS? Forget even trying lol…

But that’s the thing - it SHOULDN’T kite forever. Because it’s not a mage…

Boomy ONLY needs two things:

1. SLIGHTLY more durability
2. No Eclipse and less AP but harder hits and better weave-ability between ST & AoE.

I’m not laying out this theoretical build because I like it alone…
But because we’ve HAD IT before. In Legion and BfA… and it worked wonderfully and was way more fun in all content.
My version just has a few more optional complexities / mechanics to spice things up via talents. I have more detailed versions in previous threads as I just quickly wrote this one up… but again, others have made even better outlines.

The few changes we’ve received recently, the rework of the left (DoT procs) side of the Spec talent tree are great. They work really nicely with Elune’s Chosen, but that build is still behind KoTG in most content with survivability and control (Treants taunting and instant Regrowths…). That could be easily resolved with a buff to “Glistening Fur”, say: “Also increases the passive bonuses of Thick Hide and Natural Recovery by 2%”.
In regards to survivability, I’ve also suggested a passive alternative to Nature’s Vigil that would make CA/Incarn leech (lower) absorption values passively off ST damage dealt.

STILL, though, the core problems remain as I detailed in the rotation above. It’s NOT as effective as other specs. I can start bursting nigh instantly on the Mage. I need MULTIPLE GCDs on the Boomy to even start, and success is less guaranteed. All those procs, you gotta re-apply your DoTs if they’re dispelled… Starting not in Eclipse, you do no damage while other specs are doing far higher singular hits. Etc. It’s objectively harder to START your potential damage on the Balance Druid because of clunky mechanics. And you have no real shield or strong enough wall to or any form of immunity to SAVE you as most specs do either. Lol

Again, and finally… I’m NOT asking for the nature of the toolkit to be drastically changed necessarily. I only want better tuning practically (esp. Defensive buffs in PvP lmao), and ideally – a better core mechanic that lets you consistently compete vs all those classes that can set up their optimal burst windows on demand.

We can even keep the current rotation. Just gotta tune it better… to justify those GCDs that go on DoTs and entering Eclipses

I’m just throwing out suggestions and theorycrafting here… But what’s really important is we get a thorough review of the spec early into Midnight’s testing cycle… because we got NOTHING for The War Within until a month or two into it…

[Grizzle-eredar]

@Dextructive-tichondrius

Especially in PvP.

I cannot speak on this, but it’s still got to be better than SL’s version where you had to go back and forth. At least now you can remain in Solar Eclipse as long/much as you want.

@Dextructive-tichondrius

a talent for shorter eclipses

You should be able to cancel eclipses. Not sure if there’s a macro for it, but can always click off the buff slot if needed and restart what you want. I don’t recall there being an internal clock.

@Dextructive-tichondrius

Starsurge should be JUST like it was in BfA - always cost 40 AP, but hit MUCH harder.

This would come at a cost of lower filler/DoT damage as it was in BFA. Only good thing about BFA was the empowerments, even for Wrath, did splash damage. Buffing Starsurge is going to make a ramp problem even worse, or the sustain outside of pumping SS’s incredibly worse off than it is.

@Dextructive-tichondrius

But my point is a lot more CAN be done to increase variety and agency in the rotation

But these really aren’t changing the agency as there isn’t “all these abilities do the same thing, choose your flavor” - they all still hit certain criteria to be used. One doesn’t use Starfall in ST simply because they like the ability and have it available to them. One still isn’t going to use Starfire empowerments in a ST scenario. You’d have to use them in sceario’s you don’t want, to push to a specific finisher. IE I’d have to start pumping Starfire empowerments to make sure I’d get a FoE or Full moon (whichever one corresponds correctly).

And that is its own problem as we saw with Feral was having to use AoE in ST and ST in AoE to proc Bloodtalons, and in SL when you had to go back and forth between Eclipses, meaning you’d end up in Solar in AoE scenarios and Lunar in ST scenarios.

@Dextructive-tichondrius

• DoT all the targets x2-3…
• x2 of the opposite spell…
• X sec spamming surge
• Y sec spamming filler/builder
• repeat

It’s BOOOORING

But this is most classes.
Enhance:

• Flame Shock
• Spread Flame Shock
• Enable AoE builder (Crash Lightning) if it applies
• Spam maelstrom builders
• Spam Maelstrom spenders
• Repeat

The rest is more or less concerning PvP so I cannot really touch on that.

[Dextructive-tichondrius (Dextructive)]

@Grizzle-eredar

You’d have to use them in sceario’s you don’t want, to push to a specific finisher

With Eclipse yes…
Wanna ST? Moonfire, Sunfire, Starsurge, Starfire, Starfire → THEN you can Spam Wrath But oh no wait you spam Starsurge first if you have freedom long enough to use all the AP that’s coming in (too much unnecessary resource…).
I’d much prefer if Starsurge hit harder than “spamming wet noodles” in phases dictated for me yes…

My point was not about using whatever spell you wanted to because they’d all be the same, not in the slightest… In Legion/BfA you just had more freedom to cast a spell if you NEEDED to without feeling as punished for it.
Now, If you have to cast something before a DoT now… Let alone always having to spend AP and waste Starlord time BEFORE entering Eclipses as to not overcap on AP… And then deliberately use the wrong spell to get to the Eclipse…
These are all liabilities that Scream “here’s a poorly thought out core design”…
Again – the new talents are great We just need a deeper re-work.

And yet again Boomy IS effective and can be fun. But you have to be able to pull off the entireeee rotation for it to be so. Sure, other specs have conditions and builder/spender playstyles, and those are great. Boomy just has a bit too much ramp-up is what I’m trying to get at. In some scenarios, it truly becomes difficult if not impossible to actually contribute DPS. You can tag with DoTs maybe but that’s that lol then there’s an intermission, a micro-CC chain or what not… and all your build-up, procs and CDs go to waste.

My rotation right now if I were to ABSOLUTELY crank up the burst:
(I’m using a very unconventional shenanigans build I find fun and effective)
Moonfire, Sunfire, Incarn, Warrior+Fury, Spam-Surge until can’t → Alternate Insta-Starfires and Starsurges, then Starfire x2 → Fury + Incarn (thanks Whirling Stars!) and again Spamsurge/Starfires.
Then the regular rotation until CDS re-align (Thanks Lunation!) chef’s kiss for that

It’s very strong. But it’s a bit too spammy, quick shooting-feeling and still a bit slow to deliver damage, and rigid to my taste… I suppose, though, that’s just a general complaint with PvP suffering the trickle-down of M+ design and terrible decisions such as Hard-CC nerfs in DF… However, my notion that spenders are too spammy and too weak is something I’ve been saying since Shadowlands. I don’t think the builder and the spender should have equal or opposite-to-intuitive times in the rotation.
How it felt better to me in Legion and BfA is that every spell had its place and time, but you could also improvise as necessary and weren’t mechanically punished as bad as you are with the Eclipse timer.
You now need to DoT for full builder damage to count, and you need to enter Eclipse for the full damage to count again… and you need to spend your AP to maintain your buffs for your full damage to count again… multipliers over and over on top of each other…
As for why we Spender-Spam now, it’s only this way because it became necessary, otherwise the spec would’ve done no damage at all in the nick of time or having to move as mcuh as in the new raids or Mythic+ Dungeons So my ultimate conclusion would be that the game is simply too fast. It works, but it’s harder for most players as a point of entry, and is too different to what it used to be in the past; again – in PvP in particular… it’s pushed away several of my old friends who wanted to come back they were really good just two or three expansions back, but they got own’d in 3 globals and left lol
I stay because I’m passionate about the game, Boomy, and PvP. No matter how they are doing. I build my own fun even if it’s not cookie-cutter. My complaint was that there’s too much build-up, so I tried to minimize it. KoTG is arguably better in that regard, as you just Sunfire, Treants and Incarn and then Spam-Surge, Spam-Insta-Starfire-alternate etc. But I really dislike the theme and the placement mechanic, and it felt even more rigid/spammy as you get AP capped for like 10 seconds. It might be stronger though when you take the whole fight.
In raids, I’ve seen Convoke actually preforming better lately? But that’s a fire-and-forget

TL;DR I prefer fewer spells in a window, but with more mechanical agency and variety and less punishment for using what you need. HAVING to use this ability and then that one at all times, like an FFXIV rotation… doesn’t really match the pacing and style of WoW. I love FFXIV classes though regardless lol but they work in a different environment.

If WoW has less rotational abilities and more utility and control –
Then the rotation needs to have more “spice” per each spell type and GCD used.
Mechanically, more interaction between individual abilities but without overarching constraints such as Eclipse is.
I know the pruned toolkits deterred some people, but again… I LOVED BfA Boomy exactly for that. It had the right balance and more “umpf” per spell.

[Grizzle-eredar]

@Dextructive-tichondrius

Let alone always having to spend AP and waste Starlord time BEFORE entering Eclipses as to not overcap on AP… And then deliberately use the wrong spell to get to the Eclipse…
These are all liabilities that Scream “here’s a poorly thought out core design”…

To be fair, the slight overlap, or miss in these nuances doesn’t result in massive DPS losses or mechanic design issues. It’s just as it is, and little nuances that you can learn to master to get better. Or not worry too much about and just run through your rotation for not much loss.

@Dextructive-tichondrius

How it felt better to me in Legion and BfA is that every spell had its place and time, but you could also improvise as necessary and weren’t mechanically punished as bad as you are with the Eclipse timer.

But you couldn’t. Instead of capping on AP, Empowerments were your capping agent. Overcapping on empowerment charges = less AP = less spenders over the course of an encounter. There wasn’t really any improvising, it was “don’t let X cap before casting Y, which then leads to casting Z before going back to X”.

I think the problem now is…empowerments were easier to understand. More intuitive if one will. And there’s nothing wrong with wanting to go back to that system.

@Dextructive-tichondrius

TL;DR I prefer fewer spells in a window, but with more mechanical agency and variety and less punishment for using what you need.

I’m the opposite, I love building up to spamming big hitters. While I enjoy Feral as it is now, it was fun popping Berserk and pumping out 10+ or so Ferocious Bites in a short window.

I like how we’ve got talents as Boomy that incentivize building up your AP and dumping it as soon as you enter Eclipse states and the nuance of balancing Starlord buffs if you so choose (some times there more important things than being able to refresh 3 stacks asap).

[Dextructive-tichondrius (Dextructive)]

@Grizzle-eredar

I’m the opposite

What I would say, then, is…
Ideally…
As an MMO, the game should cater with mechanical OPTIONS in addition to talents…
I know this might deter the WoW-only players, but a system of spending points into SELECTING your spells and empowering them, and choosing mechanics…
Might not be that bad

I suppose if I am to compare why Eclipse feels more restraining to me, is that using Starsurge before Eclipse, and trying to press a builder to just get a certain type of damage out, will punish you without cooldowns, because you need to enter Eclipse and you will enter the opposite of the one you desired

I know they tried to fix that with the Mastery change, and indeed have moved more damage into each spell passively.

Like you said, as it is now the toolkit balancing works.
My claim remains though, that it’s still very heavy into your spender… It’s just having to spam it more times that leaves less room for other spells and makes you feel like “Oh no I have to spend all the AP now cuz more is coming in and I’ll have to refresh DoTs and the Eclipse will end soon” etc.
Whereas with Empowerments I remember taking the time… Oh, I need to DoT stuff? I’ll do that. I have EXTRA AP? Starfall or Starsurge as necessary. Then try to indeed maintain below 3 stacks (I’ll grant your claim, my suggestion basically says you will spend stacks on EITHER instead of on BOTH spells, and then gain an “Eclipse” bonus to that damage type and build up to a big spell.)

I suppose, I’m not actually suggesting a system that’s wildly different.
The confusion might have come from me treating my new idea with the same name as the old system
But Eclipse also had like 6 versions…

So, essentially…
My big gripe with it is that I want a “Starsurge before Wrath/Starfire” system where the spells don’t feel wasted.
And I want it because I feel like most other specs can burst faster per-GCD and that will make it easier to get counter-pressure out. Back in the Legion/BfA days, a single Starsurge, let alone two, felt seriously threatening.
If we take damage-per-second… It’s harder to spend all your AP in intensive / PvP scenarios now. It just takes longer, also then to build back up to that potential again. Being weaker-per-hit as well, it feels like you’re always on the back foot meanwhile other classes are chunking your HP big time… Or, in PvE, let’s say you’re in the middle of the damage window and some other class’s numbers bar just Eclipses yours lol So essentially in PvP that translates to – they oneshot you.
I hope this clarifies my earlier points, and I should have probably clarified earlier or started with it so… My apologies lol

Another scenario where the timer is annoying is: “I was in the middle of an Eclipse or Incarn with all the burst up, capping on AP, but had to Cyclone something…” so I wasted that Eclipse timer and lost a lot of AP… Whereas with the Empowerments I could have saved that whole AP build-spend because I halted it to use the utility/CC/mobility etc. At least, I don’t recall there being as much of a loss of damage potential. That’s what I meant by “agency” I suppose.