Bad dungeon design philosophy

It sounds like you dislike power progression in an RPG. I don’t really understand why you’d want the things you claim to want.

Normal/heroic scaling means… Well, why have gear at all? You can’t ever actually progress and improve your character.

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sounds awful. no thank you!

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Thats what base level content is for tho. Any level 60 with good gear is only in a low level dungeon for 2 reasons, power leveling a friends alt/toon or knocking a quest clear out quickly. Some dps classes with the right gear and mostly skill tbh can tank things easily enough. but normal and heroic dungeons are supposed to be easily clearable content that does not require big gear and skill to complete, thats what its there for, its entry level content. if they changed the scaling at that level, youd have no one bothering to do it because a) the rewards would not be worth it in comparison to mythic + content, and b) it wouldnt be an efficent leveling option compared to smashing out quests and killing world mobs. Its content to give players an introduction to how to run and operate in group content, not provide end game, thats what mythic + and raids are for.

“Dungeon Philosophy”

Appropriate for the pseudo Lumpen Literati. Great philosophical geniuses.

Fake. Skill gap more like gear/meta talent gap. Anyone playing my character after a few hours would probably do fine.

That’s because normal dungeons at 60 essentially are pointless.

ESPECIALLY when more tiers come out and the gap between a fresh max level player and one who has decent, not even amazing gear for that current tier.

Like at a rough guess, I’m probably 10x more powerful than I was when I hit 60, and I’m nowhere near the strongest I’ll be during this tier.

I think it’s impossible to keep beginner content difficult enough to require group cohesion when player power scales exponentially on a tier by tier basis.

Like I said before, I’m currently like 10x more powerful than I was when normal dungeons were relevant. By the end of the expansion, that number will probably be closer to 50x.

But fresh 60’s who have just hit 60 (which is what the content is tuned for) will remain the same power level throughout the expansion.

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Renown carry over would fix that. But…its not there. So its 225runs to power spam this. Which is really odd…all the stories are mixed.

Maldraxus on a switch be like who are you again?

And there would be my now Kyrian VE hunter going its so gonna be like that, huh? You needed me to beat YOUR traitor down. And now you are going to start me at 1 renown? Really…

They I am told put it in torghast. Most make that rank 4 to 6 and call her done. Torghast is an odd beast. Collectables are in there. more die hard dungeon/raid don’t care about them. And casuals don’t like it enough to go run for them lol.

You can progress - when you are able to do heroic, you go do heroic, while others who do not yet have the equipment cannot.

How is that not being able to improve your character? It’s not.

But if for any reason you decide to power regress (on any of the dungeons that are the same level you are) and go backwards in power and do normal or heroic, then it’s not unreasonable to expect that the damage you inflict is capped and the damage the mobs receive is capped to the level those with the best “normal but not yet heroic” adventurers would do.

This is so people can actually enjoy the latest expansion and the game would operate by design - the design of “you need a tank and need a healer to do this” rather than “who needs a tank or healer - watch the level 60 dps or tank solo his way though a level 60 dungeon”, which ruins the fun for everyone else trying to enjoy the latest expansion.

Many of the bosses skills because useless because they never survive long enough to ever get to them, which again makes it a clear breaking of the DESIGN of the game.

If people want to solo a normal or heroic they can go back and do level 55 dungeons or lower.

If people don’t like that, fine: they’ve progressed to heroic level 60 so they can go do heroic level 60, or they’ve progressed to mythic level 60, so they can go do mythic level 60.

No base level content is there for everyone to enjoy. You can’t enjoy it when a level 60 goes into your level 60 dungeon and breaks the “you need a tank and you need a healer” DESIGN where now you’re no longer needed, breaks the skills of the boss mobs who can’t survive long enough to use them, and it’s a joke of an experience as one or two people blitzes through mobs like the mobs are level 30

For those level 60’s who want to solo normal and heroic dungeons, go into level 55 or lower dungeons.

You’re not the only one playing the game - believe it or not there are level 60’s that want to do level 60 normal dungeons where, AS DESIGNED, you actually NEED a tank to tank and actually NEED a healer to heal. They only become pointless when the game ignores it’s own design and allow level 60’s to go into level 60 dungeons and make tanks and healers and boss skills useless. Now as you pointed out it IS pointless but people don’t pay for a pointless experience - they pay to play a game.

I think it can be done. In level 60 normal dungeon, what would the average damage be done per skill by adventurers that are just shy of having iLevel to get to heroic, and what would the average damage received - and scale the damage to that level for anyone geared any higher. You still benefit from having great gear, but it stops at the point of making the dungeon run completely pointless.

And people are not forced to power regress to play the weaker level 60 dungeons. If they love power leveling, then go play the hardest versions of the dungeons they’re gear affords, rather than power regressing and ruining it for everyone else trying to enjoy the max level dungeon they’re able to currently enjoy. :sunglasses:

cool, have fun waiting 3 hours for a tank for your normal dungeons at 60 because no tanks ever queue for them

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I think ‘shortcuts’ are bad design for dungeons. Not only is content skipped, us people who want flying back don’t care about that, but someone ALWAYS pulls what is intended to be skipped and/or while running back after being killed.

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I can walk in and solo a normal dungeon without any threat of dying but doesn’t mean I’ll do a calling and play the tanks job for them.

I can sort of see your point. But dungeon running has become something you do multiple times a day. Not once a week like it used to be.

For that amount of time I want to get through them as fast as possible and I don’t care what it takes.

But I do agree Blizz has designed the magic out of dungeons. They used to be about adventure and now its a mini diablo game.

The problem is not the design, but player ability.

Nothing that is queueable is meant to be hard, otherwise people wouldn’t complete them.
Just look at how much people complain when Timewalking happens to be a bit overtuned.

That’s the point: you still have to wait a long time for tanks now that you don’t need because dps can tank it.

More and more of the game has become an impediment to be skipped - a nuisance just to get the best stats. But when you’re level 60, no level 60 content should be so trivially skippable, least of all level 60 dungeons where tanks are not needed or healers are not needed.

There’s hardly any skill / ability needed (I’m assuming you’re referring to the person playing)

People of the greatest skill cannot solo normal level 60 dungeons with gear that’s not good enough for heroic. People of the least amount of skill could solo a normal 60 with equipment good enough for mythic dungeons.

There’s a difference between “not being hard” and “you don’t need tanks or healers even though the game is designed to claim you do” for level 60’s in level 60 dungeons.

People paid for the latest expansion to have fun, including having level 60 dungeon runs that act as designed where tanks are needed, healers are needed, a decent amount of cooperation is needed. Hard? No. But a far cry from one person not needing anyone else in the group and runs off to solo a 5-man level 60 dungeon in a level 60 maximum level RPG game, where you can tell no one has any chance of dying.

Those who want to solo dungeons can still revisit level 55 or lower dungeons and have at it. Let level 60’s (maximum level) people actually enjoy the level 60 (maximum dungeon level) content as was intended before the level 65 content comes out. The highest level content at least should be enjoyable as designed. :slight_smile:

As a side note: when you have a group that’s equipped as intended for a dungeon and the group wipes, it helps to remind them: “Well this is refreshing instead of going through knowing it’s about impossible to die” - makes them realize we have a gem on our hands: the need to have to cooperate and work together to finish it out with the risk of death if you don’t - due to equipment, not skill of players.

Thank you everyone for the posts so far!

The problem is about scaling, which is the way Blizzard tunes in difficulty, not by having better AI.

In order for pugs to clear normal and heroic without issues, they tune the numbers low enough that someone like me can come in and solo it.

If I couldn’t solo it at 240 IL (and mind you, I could at 215), then it’d probably be too hard for the average pug. Also, bear in mind that these dungeons are tuned for the very bottom of the skill spectrum.

At the end of the day, if you want a challenge, you do m+.

What they could do is not have level 60 players in the queue with people still leveling, in order to maintain what little challenge there is for those people.

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As a prot pally I could definitely solo something like mists of tirna scithe in appropriate ilvl gear for a normal, would just take forever. I’m willing to bet I could do ToP and Spires as well. None of them have any hard dps checks, which means you can just outlive everything.

What are you smoking?

This is exactly what Mythic+ dungeons are for. They already have this feature. Go use it.

Well I’ve never ran into this problem so what can be changed that doesn’t affect those not experiencing this?

In BFA 8.3, or whatever I was geared enough to do it on my paladin I would que as tank and just roll the place over as ret for the loot bag at the end. It was fun and quick.