Backstab Rogues Needs Some Love! GIVE US ! "Deadly Brew" via simple rune combination

I’d like to propose a quality-of-life improvement for Rogue players who favor Backstab-focused builds in SOD. The proposal being to merging Slaughter from the Shadows and Cutthroat into a single Hands rune.

The problem is clear: Backstab builds lack the poison synergy that Saber Slash and Mutilate get from Deadly Brew. Those builds stack multiple poisons and still use Windfury or sharpening stones, while Backstab Builds are stuck with one poison on off hand. . Envenom feels awful without Deadly Brew. Running deadly poison on off hand with windfury for main hand, you are not even able to use instant poison so “ you have a 75% increased frequency of applying Instant Poison” means nothing

Backstab Builds deserve the same poison-driven potency as their Saber Slash and Mutilate. This change will bring all dps specs into equal viability, while not impacting tanking rogues.

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would it affect pvp though?

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Yes, it would be a dps increase for backstab. I haven’t done the math to really find out how much of a increase.

My approach to balancing this change would be to play amount of energy reduction the rune offers to backstab, currently set at 30. Maybe reducing it to 20, resulting in backstab costing 40 energy would balance dps output.

Look, with the damage reduction currently in place, Rogues deserve this. I was hitting a Shaman for 99/99 Mutilate the other day—not because of some anti-griefing mechanic, not because he was using defensives—just as he was running into an instance. That’s how bad Rogue damage is right now. Meanwhile, Saber Slash and Mutilate fully benefit from Deadly Brew, stacking poisons while still running Windfury or sharpening stones. Backstab builds? Stuck with one poison on the off-hand and can’t even use Instant Poison, making the “75% increased frequency of applying Instant Poison” completely useless.

And before anyone says “but stun locks!”—come on. Stun DRs exist, everyone has a trinket, and now there’s a 2-minute cooldown trinket that removes all movement impairing effects on top of that. It’s not 2005 anymore; people have way more tools to counter Rogue control. Meanwhile, Rogues are hitting like wet noodles while other melee specs are pumping.

This change isn’t about making Rogues some PvP god-tier class—it’s about fixing Backstab in PvE so it’s actually viable. Saber Slash and Mutilate get full poison synergy—why should Backstab be left behind?

And let’s be real: if a Rogue doesn’t secure a kill in a stun, they’re usually dead in three seconds after. Damage still matters.

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heh their damage is really good vs non tank shaman and every other non tank.

youre bringing up damage to a tank shaman on a class whos damage can be blocked or parried or dodged (but most importantly blocked btw shaman get even more armor and stuff by blocking) like it matters in the slightest.

rogue damage is very strong.

please dont act like its not.

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In PvE, yes. In PvP? Absolutely not, especially with all the one-shots going around. Doing that is a literal impossibility, Aggrend made sure of that.

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the one shots are mostly against low hp targets , which i can assure you rogues can eat through that low hp with a quickness.

but in higher hp targets rogues do have to rely on stunlocks and gaming every system they can to win , fortunately for you rogues have aloooooooooooot of tools to do so and can reset most fights with alot more ease than pretty much every other class.

dont act like youre weak dude. its silly.

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  • Mages? Freeze us, Blink out, then kite or delete us before we can even get close again.
  • Priests? Fear and DoTs shut down Vanish, and they can just heal through our damage while whittling us down.
  • Hunters? Freezing Trap, Disengage, Flare, and Pet CC. Good luck getting in melee without being kited to death.
  • Warlocks? Low HP? They can literally turn into demon tanks now. They already had Fear, Soul Link, and absurd sustain—now they just don’t die.
  • Other Rogues? Whoever gets the drop wins—that’s not a Rogue strength, that’s just a mirror match.
  • Druids? Oh, you mean the ones spamming Starfire from 40 yards away, deleting us before we even get in range? Yeah, great example.

So tell me again—what exactly are these mythical “low HP” targets that Rogues are supposed to delete with ease? Because in reality, most classes have a way easier time countering us than we do killing them.

The actual issue is Backstab builds being weaker than other Rogue specs due to lack of poison synergy. This isn’t about making Rogues unstoppable—it’s about fixing an internal balance issue within Rogue specs. If you want to argue that Rogues as a class are strong, fine—but don’t pretend Backstab isn’t objectively worse than Mutilate and Saber Slash in both PvE and PvP.

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Who the hell uses Saber Slash in pvp? Mutilate can work but its not viable for resets. Backstab rogues are very, very good. They just arent braindead easy anymore. Come out and watch rogues duel in the gurubashi arena.

I wish Hemo+CB was viable I would be playing that 100%.

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I noticed you didn’t really respond to the low HP argument, but that’s fine—we can move past that and focus on the bigger picture.

The real issue here is how Rogue rune design forces unnecessary trade-offs that make certain builds feel incomplete. Mutilate, Shadowstrike, Saber Slash, and Cutthroat all competing for the same slot limits build variety. If you take Mutilate, you lose Shadowstrike, which means no gap closer. If you take Shadowstrike, you can’t take Cutthroat, which means Backstab becomes unusable in 1v1 fights unless the target is distracted.

Then there’s the issue with Deadly Brew and Slaughter from the Shadows being in the same rune slot. Backstab builds rely on Slaughter to reduce energy costs, while poison-based builds need Deadly Brew for synergy. Since we can’t have both, we’re forced to choose between sustain and poison efficiency, which makes no sense.

Between the Eyes and Quick Draw have similar problems. Between the Eyes competes with Envenom, so you have to pick between a ranged stun for PvP or core poison damage for PvE. Quick Draw applies a ranged slow and grants a combo point, but taking it removes Deadly Brew and Slaughter, meaning it destroys sustain just for a slow. These choices aren’t about build diversity—they’re about picking which part of your spec you want to cripple.

At the end of the day, Rogue balance shouldn’t be about making us choose between core mechanics. Small adjustments, like moving key runes to different slots or tweaking how Shadowstrike interacts with Backstab, would go a long way in making each build feel complete without forcing bad trade-offs.

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Low health? my r13 rogue has 6k health outside of bgs and I dont even use any of the BM pieces.

I’m kinda lost do you want changes for pvp or pve? lol

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Your health pool isn’t really the issue here. I think there was some confusion—this isn’t about Rogue survivability, but about how rune design forces bad trade-offs that don’t exist for other classes. Right now, Rogues don’t get real playstyle choices—they get forced into picking which part of their spec they want to cripple.

The main issue is that rune placement forces PvP Rogues into choices that don’t make sense. Quick Draw, for example, competes with Deadly Brew and Slaughter from the Shadows in the chest slot, meaning taking a ranged slow kills sustain. The simplest fix would be moving it to the back slot, where it would instead compete with AoE-focused runes like Crimson Tempest, Blunderbuss, and Fan of Knives. That way, PvP Rogues have to choose between single-target utility or AoE pressure instead of being forced to gut their sustain.

Another major issue is Between the Eyes competing with Envenom in the legs slot. This forces PvP Rogues to choose between having a stun or doing real damage, which is a bad trade-off. The better fix would be moving Between the Eyes to the wrist slot, where it would compete with Carnage, Unfair Advantage, and Cut to the Chase. This would make the trade-off between extra sustain (Carnage) and control (Between the Eyes) instead of forcing Rogues to pick between CC and a functional finisher.

Shadowstrike, though, is an even bigger issue—it’s a dead rune in its current state. It competes with Cutthroat in the same slot, which means that if you take Shadowstrike, you cannot take Cutthroat, and Backstab remains positional. That’s an immediate problem because it forces Rogues into Sinister Strike spam, even if they don’t want to play that way. Without Cutthroat, Backstab is nearly useless in 1v1 fights because the moment your target turns to face you, you can’t use it anymore. Unless you waste a Kidney Shot just to land one hit, you’re locked out of your own rotation.

This makes Shadowstrike completely non-viable for any build that wants to use Backstab. And since Shadowstep already exists in the Waist slot, there’s almost no reason to take Shadowstrike at all—you can just run Shadowstep and manually use Ambush or Backstab instead, without breaking your entire spec. Compare this to other openers like Mutilate or Saber Slash. Those fit smoothly into their intended builds, but Shadowstrike actively ruins the synergy between openers and combo point generators because it locks you into Sinister Strike.

At that point, what is Shadowstrike even for? If you want armor penetration, Mutilate or Saber Slash are better choices. If you want a teleport, Shadowstep does it better and doesn’t force you into a broken rotation. Shadowstrike doesn’t offer meaningful build variety—it’s just a trap rune that ruins your combo generation.

The easiest fix? Either move Shadowstrike to a different rune slot so it doesn’t compete with Cutthroat, or make it grant a 5-second buff where Backstab can be used from any direction. Otherwise, no serious Rogue will ever take it.

These changes don’t remove trade-offs, they just fix broken rune placements that force players into bad choices. You still have to choose between offense, sustain, and utility, but no build gets crippled just for picking a rune. Does that make more sense? Which part do you actually disagree with?

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This change just dumbs down the class. No one had problems with backstab spec in classic, TBC or Wotlk. Its a lost play style for SOD.

I now understand what ur saying. Shadowstrike while cool was instantly replace by either mutilate or Saber Slash or Main Gauche. It was never a popular rune.

I just want Hemo to be great again. Let me know when that happens. I will take my rogue out of retirement. =)

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