Azshara is way too likeable to be offed as “Void servant #12421”
Unfortunately they’re forshadowing her being just that. So dumb. I’d rather they make neutral playable Naga and have her as the racial leader.
Yes, she’s still evil. But the factions let the naga help them out anyways in a sort of uneasy alliance kind of deal.
As for how Naga would be playable? Honestly, they’re WoW’s equivelant of mermaids, and mermaid tails transforming to working legs has been a thing forever. Just let Naga transform their bottom halves freely.
Maybe it’ll go both ways in Midnight. I could see her as the disc one antagonist for the elf alliance only to make a pivot when her “throne of power” is imperilled by the bigger bads of the Void. She’s certainly a dynamic enough character to play the field.
But Azshara should never be a lasting, reliable ally. Going that way would do the character a disservice.
She lack some, thing is, even thought she is far from being the one with the most empathy out there, she did show some of it, at least for her most loyal servents like Vashj, and whats funny (and its why she is more interesting than Xal’atath to me) is that even with this low empathy she still have more than Xal’atath.
With Azshara you at least have some examples of “empathy” i put the " here because its a selfish empathy, its what makes her interesting to me, i explain; Azshara wants above all else actually not power, but to rule, if you listen at all she says, she dont actually say often “i want more power” (like illidan do) she says “i am destined to rule” “i am queen not slave” everything revolve around being the Queen and to rule, and the difference between being ruler and solly wanting power is that, someone who just wants power for power (like illidan) would not care to destroy everything and everyone, while someone like Azshara who wants to rule over people, well, you need to people around to do that, so in a way, she cares about her subjects, sure she dont care like selfless person would do, but more like “if all my subjects die, i have nothingto rule over” and yes, only the most loyal and powerful and closest to her will matter most. (But thats often the case lets bo honest, poor people often get troubles frist)
There is actually some examples of Azshara coming to help her people, like the nagas in borean tundra which she came in person to emprison a kraken that was threatening them. Its like, her people will ask her help, she wont come because she cares about them, but because them being in danger is a threat to her rule, sure its not empathy but at the end of the day, its still help.
I think Ashevane did the job, had not much more to give, i think it was good story. But thats just my opinion.
I always found it pretty unfair how they condamned these 2, even more so Elisande, Kael’thas made choices that were not the best, Elisande was literally manipulated by high powers and was sure to make the best for her peoples, what i find was terrible with Thalyssra is how she never tried to understand Elisande nor did she really do anything before being throw away. Thalysra was a big opportunist when you think about it.
And i think there should be, because its kind of the main thing of their culture, its like if you remove the main theme of a race.
Remind you he was a traitor to his Queen, at some points, and thats somehting i always find weird, is that, no matter if you betray for the good or evil, at the end of the day you are a traitor, so its normal the person you try to betray act agaisnt you.
But yeah, despite all you say, she still did actions that helped Azeroth, be it to make Vashj help Illidan, or help us kill N’zoth.
I think, the idea of having them as 2 legged is not that bad of an idea, but i think the execution behind that most people offer is not very good.
Let me explain, we talking about the Naga, which one of the race that is the most versatile in the game, if you look at it, there is a lot of demorphism since war3 and also a lot of different version of them that kept being introduced with time, siren, myrmidon, sea witches in war3 which already are differents, then in legion you got the brute and in bfa the “centaur” crab one, having a 2 legged naga is not so far off, we have 6 legged ones since bfa. No need to go and have some kind of draw back to their old elven forms to do this, you just have to explain they evolved (like other nagas did) to match another functions, as its what the naga race is about.
Now, in my opinion, we could clearly play them as one legged/tail nagas, its what i would like most, as the war3 nagas everyone knows and love are these ones. Technicallity and gameplay can always be moved around with enough time and work.
Yet we did ally with her already and she helped kill N’zoth.
I would not say that it is what will happen 100%, in my opinion, what is forshadowed in the books is actually that she is not a Void servent but she use the Void for her own goals. Azshara always did this with cosmics powers, just like she used the Legion and was not its servent, just like she used N’zoth, she will use the Void to her own benefits. At least i hope they dont forget that. Also, making her a void servent would undo her bfa arc which aimed to her not being that.
That to me would be the best thing to do.
Yes, she loves deals, and it would make sense.
Remember Warcraft 3 TFT when Lady Vashj and the Nagas came to help Kael’thas, that to me would be exactly what could be done and make sense in the Midnight scenario, you replace the Scourge Kael’thas was facing with the Void.
Just like Lady Vashj did not become a good guy when she did help the elves. Its that kind of relationship i think would work.
I say no, unless as an ally of convenience at best. Let me spell it out.
To hell with the “morally grey” spiel so many fans and writers today are obsessed with, it does not apply to her;
AZSHARA IS EVIL
Azshara only cares about others in relation to herself, and she is a racist who considers everyone not part of her group lessers to be “cleansed”. Azshara sided with Sargeras to carry out an ethnic cleansing of Azeroth. Not even her fellow elves were to be spared, only the “Highborne”.
When Azshara conjured that impressive bubble to hold the weight of the ocean in the Sundering, she was only trying to save “her empire” not her people. Azshara then sold her people to N’Zoth without even asking if that’s what they wanted or not. She then spent the next thousands of years oppressing, stealing, purging and building a cult of personality.
The lore in BfA didn’t make her a kinder person. It just made her more selfish. To elaborate. In discussions of Lord of the Rings, people have wondered who was eviler out of Sauron and Melkor. Some have said that Sauron was the lesser evil because for a while he was willing to serve another. Whether that’s right or not, it applies to Azshara; she is not willing to serve anyone. That’s the change made to her in BfA.
Azshara only cares about herself and only uses empathy to control others. Their needs and wants don’t matter to her. That charisma is used to exploit others; just because something gives you pleasure doesn’t mean it’s good for you. The people she rules are seen as an extension of herself at best or toys at worst, and she’ll throw their lives away in a heartbeat at her own convenience. The most a non-Highborne could hope for is slavery. Remember the Naga enslavement of the murlocs? That’s the most non-Highborne could hope for if they’re not already on her genocide list.
Finally, if Azshara can be an ally, why not have Sargeras as an ally? Why not have the Old Gods as allies? Why not have the Lightbound or Scarlet Crusade as allies? If we’re changing alliances like changing socks, are they truly alliances?
The slippery slope is real.
In short, Azshara is an evil who cannot be trusted and any alliance should, at most if we have to have one, be temporary and over shared goals.
We already teamed up with her, shortly but still did. So its not that far fetched.
One orc did the same thought.
Matter of pov.
Exactly like some banshee queen.
Many characters cares only about thesmevles and we did not kill them we even have some as allies.
Well, thats exactly what i said, but i mean, we did alliance with people that could not be trsuted in the past too.
NO WAY!!! I love how you point out this fact as if someone denied it somewhere as to say “hoo nonono she did not do this sheidl to protect her ppl you dummoies!!!” because i know it!! i saw so many people pull this arguement off even when nobody was talking about this that its clear how you just try to enforce your point.
But, sadly for you, less than 1min after this thing happen, you have another thing that kinda contradict your point :
When Azshara is dronwing, you can see she see her people dying as they drown too, and what she says? HO YES WHAT SHE SAYS??? She says “Nooo, MY PEOPLE!!!” So what? She dont care about her people but care? Ho explain me??? But for real, she even says “No its not my fault!!! its not deal i made!!!” and you just cant say she is not caring when she says this, you clearly see she is in distres.
So yeah, so much for you to claim she dont care and is evil.
What makes your pov more valid than my pov? If you want to play that game, everyone and no-one in WoW is evil… except those are mutually exclusive, so someone has to be right and someone has to be wrong.
She was evil too, and she got punished.
Most of them aren’t genocidal egotists who’d kill us on a whim like Azshara is.
It’s relevant.
I’m not sure of the context of that. Saying “No, my people.” doesn’t mean she cared. She was also quite blase about us slaughtering those people-turned Naga in the Eternal Palace raid. I think they were more accessories to her; IF Azshara cared about them, she cared about them like a child cares for a favorite toy.
I like Azshara as a villain. I like her in a “love to hate” kind of way. She is a well-written character. Yet she is still evil and sooner or later her story will have to come to an end no matter how much we enjoy her. Also, I think it’s better to end her as a well-written character than see her become a badly written one.
Again, thats mostly matter of pov, you can say he was evil, but was he efficient? Yes he was, the Horde gained a lot of territories under the rulership of said orc.
But i never said you were wrong or that my pov was more valide than yours, i am mainly saying that we dont care whos evil and whos not, its a matter of efficiency, needs and how to deal with bigger threats.
In conclusion, being evil is not an arguement, its not like we wont team up with her because “she is evil”, it was never a thing before in all the moments when we teamed up with “evil” pepole and never will be.
You have an entire faction race of “evil” people you can play as you know? Its called the forsaken.
We still had her around as a racial leader for around 17y and we still teamed up with her, and she is still around by the way.
Sylvanas? She did worse you know? Than Azshara.
Its not because nobody pointed it out as some kind of arguement.
So you are sure about the contexte of the shield but not sure about the contexte of what she says in the exact same animated short like 1min after? Go watch it again then.
And just so you get a bit more insight ; her people turned naga?
1 - Not all of the nagas today were elves, because you had new generations of naga being born, so not all of them were night elves.
2 - Thoses who were night elves…if they did not get turned into naga…would be dead you know? And did you see ANY nagas complaining about being turned into nagas? Because, you play the white knight saying “omg she did not ask her people if they wanted to be nagas!!! its bad” but in the facts, none actually complain, its more like the opposite, so your arguement fall flat with no backing.
Hum…no? Being an antagonist dont means that your story will end eventually, thats silly, and as i said again, you have plenty of antagonist that are still around (sylvanas? allo!)
Also, if its to “put an end to her story” just to see her return again and again and again and again as vision, memory or whatever other things like…ARTHAS, please just dont put an end to it, because they dont know how to end.
The quality of her future writing is again a matter of pov, but what i will tell you is : Blizzard dont know how to write vilain in the long run, what i mean by that is, that IF Azshara had simply died in bfa, then her story would be bad written actually, its the fact she did not die that make the bfa arc good and make her character move forward.
And thats the thing with antagonist in wow, they mainly come, do a patch, and die, and often fail a lot, like, give any character antagonist, that had a good end in wow? Arthas was made dirty in wrath, Kil’jaeden died like a moron in one patch etc…
Thats the thing, Azshara being an ally (even if its of convinience) in the long term IS her ticket to have a well written story imo, because otherwise, you will just have her show up in a patch and die, just like Kil’jaden.
His efficiency was never in question. But the Burning Legion was efficient too.
While it’s true that you didn’t say that, if you didn’t think my position was wrong, you wouldn’t try to undermine it by saying it’s just a matter of pov.
I see where you’re coming from about efficiency, I feel we’re on the same page there. That’s why I said ally of convenience in my first comment here.
A lot of the Forsaken are evil, yes.
While true, Sylvanas was around due to plot armor, and she’s not evil anymore.
How so? The first invasion of Azeroth by the Burning Legion had a higher body count than the War of Thorns.
Somebody has now.
That doesn’t mean I’m wrong about her motives. Also;
The first Naga were all elves turned into Naga. New generations of Naga being born all descend from those elves turned into Naga.
The only ones who were turned were Azshara’s loyal followers. But them being loyal to her doesn’t mean she cared about them, nor does it change the fact that she made such a major decision for them. Plus, we don’t get to see the perspective of every elf N’Zoth turned into a Naga, so whether any had second thoughts or regrets is unknown.
I was talking about stories in general ending. There will be a time one day when World of Warcraft is no more. When the story is discontinued and no more new content is put out.
I’ve got mixed feelings about Azshara in BfA, but I agree that it’s good that she wasn’t killed off there.
How was Arthas made dirty in Wrath? In Shadowlands, definitely, but Wrath?
Kil’jaeden was a major player in two expansions, and more than one patch in Legion (unless you’re talking about his appearance in Burning Crusade, where he wasn’t killed, just pushed back through a portal - though how it worked was silly ).
I do not agree with that idea. Azshara is too dangerous to other characters for a long-term alliance to be a good idea. Also, even good characters can go stale with an audience (Sylvanas lost a lot of fans from Legion onward).
My ideal scenario for an Azshara expansion would be Azshara appears throughout an entire expansion centered around her and then dies as the final boss of that expansion (like Deathwing in Cata, but with more cunning).
Its not wrong, but its not relevant, thats why i said that it is “just” a matter of pov.
And we agree on that, and its why i did not exactly get why you pout so much emphasis on the “she is evil!!!”
As i gave example in my OP, i said it would be like Doctor Eggman, in Sonic, there is never any denial as to Eggman being evil, however, he is an interesting villain because even if he is evil, he do ally himself with the good guys on more than one occasion, and he is always around.
This is what i think wouldwork with Azshara.
That one is a bit tricky i think, she is “not evil anymore” i am not sure, and i think the split soul plot was a lazy plot device to kinda excuse all the bad things she had done.
I dont try to make justification by the worst (which mean giving a worse example to say "worse happenned soooo this can happen) but i hope they do better with Azshara while in the same time keep her around.
Why do you mention war of thorn as if this was her biggest goal? Did you not follow the moment when she casually tried with her big nipple friend to undo reality itself?
Azshara may have summoned the burning legion into one world, (and even so, she was not completly aware of all the implication behind it, she did not know about Sargeras master plan) while Sylvanas was aware that she wanted to undo the whole system of the Death itself…
You have world level threat agaisnt a cosmic level threat, and Azshara never was a cosmic level threat like Sylvanas was in SL. Not directly at least.
You brought it up but its not relevant.
Sure, but i mean by this, that they are a new completly different race now, there is no “curse” do you imagine coming to these new nagas born naga and be like “ho yeah your existence is born of a curse” thats a bit silly.
They are teir own thing now, stop trying to get them back to what they were, its like saying night elves should become trolls again.
They were completly loyal to her, its why they were so high and close to her, thats exactly how the socity worked in the Kaldorei Empire, and look at all of what they say, all nagas you see, they all say “for the queen” “my queen i have failed” etc etc…
Also, the whole idea of slavery in the nagas socity as a whole is not only placed by Azshara but a cultural thing in the nagas, they do that because they see themselves as superior to all others races, so they would not need to return to their old forms or say they are cursed, for them, they evolved into high beings.
I think you are short sighted here, you see it as World of Warcraft, but fail to see it as Warcraft, its like if you told me that the story of the Kingpin in Marvel will eventually end, its been 50y that its here…
Warcraft is now too much of a “thing” in poular culture to ever end. World of Warcraft maybe one day, but Warcraft and therefore Azshara? No.
To be fair, she got the best story arc she could have at that moment, and i explain why : Azshara is a very interesting character in the fact that she is not a simple servant, and that she is able to use powers bigger than her for her own gains, she used the Legion and was able to prouve herself to be stronger than majority of demons, even if demons thought they used her, in the end she did not see it this way.
Same with N’zoth, and the problem was, that a loooot of people when theorizing of what will happen with Azshara (prior to bfa) was always the “she will be an expac end boss, likely die and then N’zoth will be after her” which was clearly not understanding Azshara as a character, because they saw her as some servant of N’zoth, and her bfa arc managed to not do that and to be more respectful of the character she is than all thoese fans theories.
Because he was a moron in wrath, really, you should play wrath again and think if Arthas actually evolve and have developpement in the expac, he dont, all he does he show up, laugh like an idiot and watch you while doing cool pose, beyound that he do nothing.
Also, his whole plan in wrath is stupid, and made no sense :
Let me explains you why the plan of “testing us, making us stronger, killing us, and make army of the strongest champions” is dumb and make no sense because :
LK can kill anyone, and res anyone into an undead servant, or dk or whatever, its not like he select people he can turn into his dk, he just turn everybody if he wants.
Thats being said, why would he make a selection of the “most powerful champions” if the result in the end is to anyway have everyone be killed and turned into undead under his service?
He could just kill us no matter when, it would have changed nothing.
Thus this is why the idea of making us stronger and testing us etc is not making any sense.
All of that combined with all the stupid moments such as, when a banshee of the ebon blade posessed a val’kyr and Arthas show up, and know the val’kyr is posessed, but instead of taking over the banshee’s mind (because HE IS THE LICH KING!!!) he kills the val’kyr and let the banshee fly away…like wtf?
So yeah, Arthas in wrath is an idiot, and i am always surprised nobody understand wrath direspect his character and warcraft 3 as a whole.
No, i talk about how he showed up in Legion, in one of the worse patch ever made in recent wow, being 7.2, just look back at how it is, Kil’jaeden is angry at Sargeras, he send all his ship to Dalaran, he is like “burn it to the ground!” and you are like “omg we doomed” but not really as we do like one tiny scenario, blow up a space ship and then thats it, then we go to Tomb raid and kill him…and thats it…all his plots ended in one patch when YOU BARELY SEE HIM out of the raid!!!
So bascically you want her to end up just like Arthas and DW ; Morons who do nothing for most of their expacs and then die even if they could have killed us before…
Because, i already explained why Arthas was a moron, but in DW case its the same, the guy was supposed to destroy the dam world…but he dont do that, he go around, fight alextraza (even if he says “ho i have a world to destroy!”) then he fly some more, during 2 patches (4.1 and 4.2) you dont hear of him…and then at the very last patch he remember he can destroy the world…and he die.
No, your idea is the WORSE thing we can do with Azshara, what they did in bfa was already a great feat to explain why she did not drown us instantly in Nazjatar (another great point of bfa which was better than what they did with Arthas in wrath!)
You dont agree because you dont respect this character at its fullest.
Again, think of Eggman, and Kingpin, or Lex Luthor. Because, actually, you compare Azshara to DW, but Azshara is nothing like him, DW was wanting to destoroy the wodl, while Azshara, just like Eggman, Kingpin and Luthor want to rule over it, which is exactly why these characters i mention ally themselves with the heroes, because they think dismissing bigger threats is more important ;
“Azshara is a villain, but she’s a smart villain. Yes, she is dead-set on conquering the world, but knows she has to survive to conquer it, and that if the world is destroyed, there’s nothing to conquer.”
I always thought what kept Eggman around was the show’s rating wouldn’t allow him to be killed. iirc, the show’s finale ends with him leaving forever rather than dying.
Azshara is also more bloodthirsty than Eggman ever was. She kills people for being rude to her. Sounds like quite a loose cannon under the sophistication. I see Azshara as less like Eggman and more like Cerberus from Mass Effect. I’d say the Illusive Man, but at least he had the excuse of Reaper indoctrination.
I agree completely about that split soul plot device. I figured she’s not evil anymore because she submitted to judgement and punishment for her actions without a drop of her usual defiance.
I pointed out the War of Thorns because that was Sylvanas’ doing. Trying to undo reality itself was Mr Nipples actions and didn’t actually happen until after she turned against him. Though I think it was stupid Sylvanas didn’t figure it out sooner, even after reading the Sylvanas “make people love her” novel.
Azshara knew enough about Sargeras that she summoned the Burning Legion to Azeroth to kill everyone but her and her fellow Highborne. The retcons that made Sylvanas an accomplice to Evil Mr Clean trying to rewrite reality also added that nonsense that tried to whitewash her. I feel between a rock and a hard place on her.
Both Azshara and Sylvanas allied with cosmic level threats.
I still think it is.
My point is they’re all either mutated elves or the descendants of mutated elves. I wasn’t saying anything about changing the ones who were mutated back (if that’s even possible).
Just because they were loyal doesn’t mean Azshara deserved that loyalty. She’s one of many tyrants, like in fiction and real-life, who cultivated a cult of personality around her.
While true, that’s more ammunition for the “allying with Azshara is a bad idea” argument.
I don’t see how that’s short sighted. Might be around for decades more, but it won’t run forever.
That’s like how people thought the ship Titanic was too advanced to sink. Where is the Titanic now?
That is true, though she was outmatched by Sargeras himself, and speculated to be weaker than Archimonde or Kil’jaeden. Though given her deal with N’Zoth has likely given her a power boost instead of just making her a giant squid lady, I wonder how strong she is now.
I think BfA retconned her from N’Zoth’s servant to ally of convenience (though N’Zoth tried to rectify that ASAP when he was freed). I could go either way on Azshara being loyal to N’Zoth or not. I like both.
I figured it was combination of two things;
the stronger they were in life, the powerful they can be made as an undead being.
He can also bring back any of his undead champions killed by the player characters as many times as he wants. Which he actually does with Kel’Thuzad and Anub’arak.
That means he can keep growing his army and get more increasingly powerful champions… all with minimal effort on his part.
Okay, you’re right here. That part made no sense.
Is there anything else that bothered you about Arthas in Warcraft 3 apart from what you said before?
Good point about the patch. Like you, I always thought it stupid that the fleet of demonic warships he sent to destroy Dalaran turned out to be a big Nothingburger. I’d have preferred it if he destroyed Dalaran then or at least made it hit the ground.
You know, you’re right again. Kil’jaeden could’ve used a bigger part in Legion.
P.S Describing the raid like you did gave me the mental image of Lara Croft fighting Kil’jaeden. Imagine that boss fight!
I want her story to end on a high note… but still end one day.
True. I did say I wanted Azshara more cunning than Deathwing. Cata had potential, but underutilized him. Guess the writers figured we’d be distracted by “big lava dragon wants to kill the world!” to look deeper.
I disagree with what you think of my idea, but remember, I said I like what happened to Azshara in Bfa.
Respecting a character doesn’t always mean never letting them get killed off. I respect Thrawn in Star Wars but am not against him being killed off if it’s done well (like in the original Thrawn trilogy).
Azshara wants to rule over a world without the “lesser races”, and “lesser races” to Azshara is everyone but her and the Highborne.
I think Kingpin is a poor analogy, and I already explained about Eggman. That said, Lex Luthor might be a good analogy, though unlike Azshara - correct me if I’m wrong, Lex Luthor doesn’t have any genocidal racist aims against everyone who isn’t human.
Yes, thats more accurate term, but then i will ask, arent most of leaders and people in powers narcissist? I think they are, even more so irl.
I dont recall she did this, she killed people who betayed her like when wiped out Farondis, and that was kind of justified because well…traitors you know? Nothing to do with the “good or bad” its logical to remove trators.
I dont really know why she would be like Ellusive man, to me its not really the same. And i mean, Eggman (and other chars i metnioned after) all are narcissists, but not like Elusive Man, because just like Eggman, Azshara loves to put her symbol everywhere, put statue of her everywhere etc etc… also the fact she like to militirize things, Elusive Man (and Cerberus) were not really like this, as his name sake shows it the “Elusive” Man like to stay in the Shadows and a mysterious and you guessed it elusive figurre, Azshara dont really fit that as she like to show who she is and how awesome she is. Cerberus is more of an underground secret group, while Azshara and her Empire are not secret.
I think so, and thats what i like to point out to her fans, is that, Sylvanas post sl is not the same as the one they loved prior to SL, and that include the “ho you were not only arrows in my quiver!!!” yeah right…
I hope that if they do an ally thing with Azshara they dont try to make her like “ho she was corrupted by void its why she is evil!!” but making her more “human” like how they made Eggman more human over the years, which is not just pure evil guy is more interesting.
I also would like to explain something that to me is why Azshara is the most interesting void related character : Because she is not definished only by this, if you look at Deathwing or Cho’gall, both got kinda messed up (in a writing level) by the fact they wanted to link them so hard on the Void, if you look at them, the whispers are playing a big role on their character, but for Azshara it barely play any role, and thats because, Azshara existed BEFORE and was a well established character before being related to the Void, that is the whole 3 novels of the war of the ancients (which are the base they use with her) while Deathwing always had the old god stuff as part of his plot and cho’gall was literally retconed into a void servant all along in chronnnicles 2…and i mean, cho’gall did not have this much personnality before Cata and they already had made him old god related in the me’dan comics that date from tbc, which is what they will use as base for him.
And its why Azshara is again interesting. Because lets be honest, the cho’gall/deathwing thing is bit boring now that we saw it like 5 times, with Sarkareth and Ansurek of the “ho i use void!!! i get mad ho i need more pwoer, ho i am dead!!! the void promissed me stufff ho no but the void dont care about me!!!” Azshara know that the Void dont care.
Sure, but she still tried and wanted to “undo this flawed system” as she says herself in the Sanctum raid, she still wanted to change a cosmic level thing, even if it was not exactly how the jailer wanted it.
I think she did not know about the fact Azeroth would be destroyed thought, i dont exactly know for sure as it is never really said, but i doubt Azshara would have agreed to all of what the Legion had in mind for her and her followers as we saw what happenned with the orcs and their world. I doubt she knew about the cosmic level thing or the finality of their plan.
Yes but as i said, i doubt both knew the full implication of said threats, just that Sylvanas knew the whole cosmic level of it.
Yes, but you forget one thing is that she is extremly powerfull, its not for nothing she is considered the strongest mage who ever lived, while real life tyrants are still humans, Azshara even as an elf in regards to other elves was the strongest of them all (i would like some backstory on her to explain this further). And i think, she deserves that loyalty even back to the Kaldorei Empire because :
1 - She is as i said extremly powerfull
2 - Her era was the best of the eras for the whole Kaldorei race, so much so that she have adjectives related to her : “Azsharan”
As nagas :
1 - She even more powerfull than as an elf
2 - She saved them from drowning
3 - She is the frist of their race.
And now, thats another point that is interesting to mention : “Tyrants” authocratic leaders, dont come to power and stay in power just “because” , if they accessed to the power is because the peoples want it in most cases and its even more real in ancients times when a revolt could remove an emperor. In most tyranical regim the majoirty of the common folks actually agree with whats going on and are even happy because : it makes them more pwoerfull as a nation and culture. Its about sovereinty.
And its what i want to point out a lot here : Dont pretend to talk for the nagas when they themselves tells you they happy with whats happenning. Tyrants are tyrants only for thoses who are antagoniast to thaem.
Well, its the whole naga thing, and actually…do you know what other races do such stuff? Orcs and Dark Iron. Yes.
It will be here as long as there is fans, just like Star Wars or the comics etc…
Lol, you are comparing a technical feat with a franchise. Its not really the same. There is not much traces of the Titanic a part for its failure, but look at warcraft, look at all the arts created around it, look at all the content created around it, its like if you told me “welp all of this will be over!” but just like there is the same content made for Star Wars, for Marvel/DC, for Warhammer etc etc…
What is also interesting is that, even if she lost in the boss fight in BFA, she still kept her “glory” because, the fight in raid clearly shows you that :
1 - You are empwoered by Azeroth with the necklace and all stuff as a player
2 - She is focused on doing that ritual to free N’zoth, she even says it herself during the fight “you caught me off guard” and Chronnicles 4 also re confirm it that she was focusing a great deal of her attention and power on the ritual which is why she lost.
So in truth we never fought her at her full power, and she might even get more power in the future.
I dont think so, we barely had much infos on their relationship before, but when you see how she is in war of the ancients novels its clear she dont take oroders so i dont see her as a servant of anyone or anything. She is Queen! And i think her relationship in bfa was well done, the way how she toy with and taunts him and never actually show much respect to him. Which makes sense, she showed more respect toward Sargeras in the novels because Sargeras is muuuch more powerful than N’zoth.
Well, i dont know if thats a thing. Because well, thats a bit silly, because it would mean Arthas himself would have his lvl stagnating.
But he can do that with anything, thats the thing, and its what the Scourge was sold to be, everytime someone dies it can be risen again, its how the Scourge work, not really by incrassingly having more poweerfull champions, it was the strenght of numbers and in the bag you would have stronger champions etc, as i said, nothing prevented him to raise us at start.
Also, the fact he can teleport pretty much everywhere and slam his sword and cause big stuff like…in toc he come slam his sword and break the floor, why he dont teleport in Alliance or Horde camp and do that?
Its a quest in Icecrown zone i recall, the plot was to take control of a val’kyr to draw a vrykul champion to fight us and be killed to demoralize the vrykuls. The Banshee is named Lady Nightswood if you interested.
But thats a detail, there is plenty of such cases all around in quests, because that was the problem, showing of LK so much had a good cool thing for players because “omg you see the baddy!” and he dont sit idle, but then, it dont really explain why he dont do a bit more or why he is so silly…
Scourge itself in Wrath is really not respected as a threat, like if you look at the questing and how things evolve in the conflict in wrath, well, bascially we arrive as Horde and Alliance, we steamroll to Wrath Gate and we get stopped…by the Forsaken betayal (so not even the scourge…) and even in cineamtic Varian says “The Horde caused more casualites than the Scourge!” i mean…the scourge sucks then…and there is no back and forth, we even take horses at some points (3.2) and tremple over the scourge right in front of Icc ><
Well, in war3 he is well written imo, and i mean, he is a spoiled prince in war3, he take reckless decisions and is bit silly in some of them, like when he burns the ships so his men cant leave (and he was not under LK control at that moment so he did not need that to be a bit of a jerk) but in wrath, they wanted very hard to make him the “guy in charge” to make him THE Lich King, and to do so they wrote that book (Rise of the Lich King) which tells you that at the end he defeated Ner’zhul spirit…even if war3 said “Now we are one” and that his soul was owned by Ner’zhul the moment he took the runed blade (stated by war3). Arthas in war3 was a pawn, and they retconned him to be the boss in woltk which is not respectful to war3. And i mean, in one part you have a spoiled prince jerk and other you had a dam orc shaman who got into a lot.
Do note that, in wrath, they completly not bother to talk about Ner’zhul, at some point LK says “i was a shaman” ok dude, so you ner’zhul then? Oh but everyone says Arthas even narration…and its annoying because, even thought they say, Arthas removed his own hearth, removed his good parts etc they still be like “ho but no he was maybe still somehting in him that held his hand!” but you just told me he was at pick of his power and removed all his good parts…and even with that, why so push the “he is in charge fully” when in the finale cineamtic you hae him be like “ho is it over?!” as if he was relieved…and you have big hints that there is still something in that helm?
You see, thats why wrath lore is annoying. Even Metzen when asked if Arthas was holding back said “you free to speculate!” (which means “i have no idea myself lul”! )
Exactly, and its the problem with most patches in WoW, you have the bad guy showing up, dont do much but a lot of noises then go in raid and die…and you are like “welp that was Kil’jaeden” and even in Legion as a whole, he dont show up, only in a rogue sub quest…
But its the same problem as in wrath, a bit less alarming but still here, the Legion is a joke, like, in the very frist quests to get your artefact weapons, you kill biiig high ranking demons like the personnal assassin of Sargeras…and most of the important demons get killed in order hall campign and in raid you have mostly randome guys.
Hahahah, i did not even think of it!! But its true! he show up do some “hahaha” and then be like “i let you in company of my underlings while i go to the Tomb and get the spoils and glory!”
I get you there, actually i was a bit harsh on my message, but yes, its because i was so disappointed for these 2 that i really dont want her to end up the same.
Its the “awesome!” way of doing it, like, the point always was to “make big things” like how to explain, they made big explosions and made big “WOAW” moments, but when you look deeper…you are like “wait…why if his ultimate goal is to destroy the world why he dont do it already?” like for example, it was “WOAW” to have Deathwing landing on Stormwind…but made no sense for him to no destroy it.
But it was the idea, i see people nowadays complain that cgi are not epic enough, but the epicness sometimes is harming the story, like with Deathwing in this cgi.
Again, i may have been a bit too harsh here, let me elaborate, its more that, when we considere what we had before with such antagonist (ones that had their own expacs) it was not that good…sure it can be done good, but we saw the writers are not good at it.
But we are a bit on an hot spot, because, in one hand, having a one expac antagonist like dw and LK showed to be “meh” but when you look at Xal’atath as they say will remain during the whole saga, its already a bit meh because, well, she already got a big setback in the ending of the tww campaign and if she gets setbacks like this in whole saga…welp it will be like “team rocket blasting off again!” haha
Thats true, and i think, we are getting in again an hot spot here, as i am shared, because, one part of me think like you, that yes, one character (mainly antagonists) are allowed to die and have a good ending, but one part of me think it would be a waste. So i am shared! But i think, she would have moe potential being kept around.
And the nagas, because, by definition, as all og nagas were highborns, then the nagas are the highest beings even for her, thats the trick here.
I can see why you think that, fair enough here!
I dont think he did, mainly his deeds are motivated by getting more money, like when he allow a space invasion only so he can sell superweapons to the army in oroder to get even more money.
BUT, what good point i see in Luthor, that can be done with Azshara, is the moment when Luthor sacrificed himself to kill Darkside, so everyone would see him as the ultimate hero.
That moment was interesting and to me smart because, he achieved his goal in a way nobody would have imagined him capable of, he became a “god” and savior of Earth but this was nowhere motivated by him caring for others, it was a choice purely out of arrogance and pride to show he succeded while nobody even superman could succed.
I see this work for Azshara actually, as you said before, she is selfish, and the shield she made was not for her people but for her Empire and what she built, imagine that, she would sacrifice herself just so that her Empire, her as a symbol would survive, still quite selfish, but in the end of the day, she would have saved the world.
Like most people have said in this thread… Azshara makes a good “frenemy” of sorts. Someone who we oppose vehemently at almost every level… but sometimes works with us when necessary.
Similar to Magatha Grimtotem.
I don’t necessarily want to see them in the Horde Council or Alliance Throne room. But they have motivations that sometimes align with ours - like when existence itself is at risk.
I would also counter-argue on that from the perspective of what she represents.
Dath’remar is too big of a deal for Quel’thalas - he was basically the object of ancestor worship - for an alliance with Azshara to go down well with people there, and Suramar’s role in the war of the ancients was sealing away the portal in the Grand Temple of Elune (the Tomb of Sargeras). There is a cultural undercurrent that would make it hard to justify for either group.
If they did it, though, I could appreciate the comedy in the various elven leaders constantly airing grievances about it while having her main alliance with the factions go through other people (and the collective “we told you so” at her inevitable betrayal makes more sense then).
She doesn’t want to be your ally. She only cares about herself and how much power she wields. She despises you just for not being in her image. The only way to “ally” yourself to Azshara is to be her willing slave.
This isn’t MLP: Friendship is Magic. Not every villain needs a redemption arc and a hug.
Joke aside, she would happilly ally herself with us if she had something to gain out of it, so she would be our ally in that case, the reasons dont matter that much.
The thread is about that she should be our ally in the future plots, not the reasons behind it.
Most Alliance in real life were never made out of kindness or out of “ho i like you so i ally with you” not really no most were made because both factions found a common ground and would get benefits.
Its why actually, alliances in real History were never lasting very long, a lot of Kingdomes and Empires were allies one day and foes the day after.
Its something i always find a bit weird and interesting with people bringing up the arguement of '“she is evil” or “she is selfish” as if, people often do things out of being good or out of selflessness…they really rarely do lol especially people in high positions of power, do you think they do things because they care for their peoples for real?
).