How can you have:
Avenging Wrath 20 dmg / 20% crit on live
Which you are given an upgrade in the talent tree: Crusade
What is the logical thought pattern of doing this?
Simple, Crusade is a DPS upgrade to AW and it replaces the entire ability.
So let’s say that:
AW allows us to do 100% normal dps.
Crusade allows us to do 110% dps.
Fast forward to DF.
What do we have?
AW was broken into, 3 min cd, 60 sec upg and the 20% crit part, okay fine… it had ranks, sure. But it’s not a full AW
AW after taking the 60 sec talent, let’s say it allows us to do … 90% dps
What do we have in the ret tree?
Upgrades to AW.
We have a choice actually.
Do we take:
a) Avenging Wrath: Might which gives it back its 20% crit?
This means we’ll have 100% normal DPS. Logical, no?
b) Crusade - replaces Avenging Wrath which means it brings us to… 110% dps.
So in what world will AW: Might be a dps upgrade over Crusade?
It’s a logical impossibility, unless we have talents that make crit% valuable enough to overcome Crusade, which we know we don’t have.
TL;DR
Live - AW = 20% dmg + 20% crit and Crusade = dps upgrade
DF - AW = 20% dmg we then chose between AW:Might which brings it to normal status, or the obvious Crusade which is an upgrade, proven by Live.
The way that it’s worded is kindof weird, because Avenging Wrath itself is a talent you don’t have to take.
So Avenging Wrath:Might and Crusade have to exist without the idea of “replacing” Avenging Wrath, because you may simply not even have the spell Avenging Wrath.
(Dumb, I know, but here we are…)
So normally, on live, Crusade would say “Replaces Avenging Wrath.” Very simple and straight forward.
In DF, Avenging Wrath (class talent) states that it combines with other Avenging Wrath abilities, granting ALL known Avenging Wrath effects while active.
Now, if you don’t have Avenging Wrath in the class talent…
These abilities are simply this:
Avenging Wrath: Might
Call upon the Light and become an avatar of Retribution, increasing your critical strike chance by 20% for 20 sec.
Crusade:
Call upon the Light and begin a crusade, increasing your haste by 3% for 25 sec.
Each HP spent during Crusader increases haste by an addition 3%, stacking 10 times.
So if you choose not to spec into AW at all, these talents become extremely devalued (imo) and simply become a 20% crit buff for 20 sec vs a 30% haste buff for 25 sec.
Nope, they are 2 spells separate from Avenging Wrath Base.
And they are 2 spells that combine with AW Base.
So each of them(AW: Might and Crusade) is 2 things, which one is learned depends if AW Base is learned.
Avenging Wrath: Might
Call upon the Light and become and avatar of retribution, increasing your critical strike chance by 20% for 20 sec.
If Avenging Wrath is known, also grants 20% damage increase.
So if AW Base is not known: Call upon the Light and become and avatar of retribution, increasing your critical strike chance by 20% for 20 sec. If AW Base is known: Call upon the Light to become an avatar of retribution, increasing your damage, healing, and critical strike chance by 20% for 20 sec.
Crusade: Call upon the Light and begin a crusade, increasing your haste by 3% for 25 sec.
Each Holy Power spent during Crusade increases haste by an additional 3%.
Maximum 10 stacks.
If Avenging Wrath is known, also grants 3% damage per stack.
So if AW Base is not known: Call upon the Light and begin a crusade, increasing your haste by 3% for 25 sec.
Each Holy Power spent during Crusade increases haste by an additional 3%.
If AW Base is known: Call upon the Light and begin a crusade, increasing your haste and damage by 3% for 25 sec. Each Holy Power spent during Crusade increases haste and damage by an additional 3%.
I see what you are trying to say based on their wording… that they “combine” as stated in the AW: Base talent.
But that can’t be… like you said, they became much weaker without AW: Base… which makes no sense, they’d want to decrease the delta in power, not increase the delta between having and not having.
They should all just be one talent all the avenging wrath talents should just be avenging Ralph this is what I was really worried about and a lot of people were worried about.
That yeah we’re bringing back talents oh great we’re spending all of our talent points instead of making the class better we’re just getting back to where we were at the end of shadow ends so effectively nothing’s changed except actually the class is worse.
Now Grant it yeah I know it’s the 1st alphabild and I know they’re gonna do changes but you change it but still I look at shaman and I compare and go how did this happen.
How does one class get designed so much better and another gets designed so much worse it it was feel like they picked people that doesn’t know anything about the class to design the talent trees almost.
Because instant damage is valuable in PvP, where we don’t want to waste valuable time building stacks to start doing good damage but would rather burst immediately.
That instant dmg you’re talking about… when Crusade was good to be picked for PVP too, because it’s superior to base AW, i think this was in BFA. And it was sometimes picked out of the lineup we had then… Holy Avenger, Crusade and Inquisition.
Over what it would get picked now? Over base AW.
So why did they gimp themselves with Crusade over absolutely nothing?
For ex this guy was gimping himself by losing 20% crit and dmg by picking Crusade?
If nothing (a.k.a was base AW) then it would have been superior then, as his burst fell down due to picking Crusade, no?
Basically we can count AW to have 3 lvls on live (ignore the 60 sec cd reduction rank):
If Sanctified Wrath/Final Reckoning would not exist on live… and you’d have to pick between AW base and Crusade, you’re saying you’d rather stay untalented?
Because that’s basically the choice node there in DF: Untalented(AW2)/Crusade(AW3)
That’s why i’m saying it’s a logical mistake on the devs part to pit them like that.
For Feral they split Berserking, but what did they really do? They made it so that the parts that were split off, had extra effects.
If AW: Might stays in the tree, it needs an additional effect to compete with Crusade as a pick.
P.S. Looking at the blessings buff there makes me wanna cry.
WTB Kings/Might/Wisdom back!
We’d be taking Crusade right now if it wasn’t for the Light’s decree baked in SW.
Now in the new talent tree they made Touch of light which reads like Lights decree so we have that out of our CDs but it’s a % chance on everything instead of a sure proc on spenders.
On Alpha it’s been confirmed to be exactly like on live… the talent tree on wowhead is just wrong, there was no nerf.
You meant Seraphim 8% + 6% from Relentless Inquisitor here, no?
There is also 2% extra haste from class tree, the one from ret tree will be skipped as there are more high value talents to pick along the way.
That’s only autoattack speed, not haste as it doesn’t affect our ability cd’s or gcd.
The gameplay in BFA was vastly different then it is now. Items existed that made players passively tanky (tank trinkets, crucible of the storms gear) and thusly that meta was one where strong sustain was needed to get wins. Crusade was more viable during Legion / BFA, but still wasn’t always ideal depending on what 3v3 comp you played. That is why most top rated Ret’s played Inquisition over Crusade.
Linking an old video about 2s is laughable to say the least, the PvP meta doesn’t get balanced around 2v2. Shadowlands buffing crit damage from 150% to 175% put a huge emphasis on burst damage (instant damage and crit) because health values were scaled drastically lower then they were in BFA. This is why you see people getting 100-0’d in 1-2 seconds this entire expansion.
Because Inquisition was easy to maintain and was a 7% dmg and 7% haste perma buff basically, versus Crusade which is (over AW) 10% dmg and 30% haste minus 20% crit… only during its duration.
But we lost inquisition as an option for more pressure overall. And i ran Inquisition 90% of the time whatever i was doing, it simmed higher than Crusade for me in PVE too.
And the difference between AW 20% dmg and crit versus Crusade 30% dmg and haste is from 40% to 60% dmg.
You’re going from 20% to 40% or from 20% to 60% when selecting either of the talents.
Crusade lasts longer too, and the Sanctified Wrath talent in the class tree is going to make it even longer, the rampup is very fast especially due to the extra haste.
TL;DR: That 20% crit chance will need to make up for 10% more dmg and 30% more haste with a fast ramp and longer duration, so i’m pressing X to doubt that AW: Might will be more powerful than Crusade.
You’re entirely missing the point of what makes Crusade bad. It takes time to ramp the damage to max, it’s not as simple as press the button and you’re already at 30% damage 30% haste. When using normal wings you get instant value out of the following GCD’s.
In PvP good players will save mobility and CC to shutdown the extremely obvious cooldown that is Ret wings. Effectively being able to use the first few seconds of wings to burst as hard as possible is crucial to using them. It isn’t about sustain damage because good players are going to let you get 50% or less uptime during that cooldown while they shut you down.
Yes they will, but the ramp up isn’t as big as you make it, the first finisher will bring it to 4 stacks as it starts as 1, the 2nd finisher is getting it to 7 stacks which makes it 21% dmg and 21% haste, you’re already on par with normal AW dmg on your 2nd attack(it counts for the current attack as it stacks first then applies the dmg), so only the first finisher is reduced, 2nd is on par and 3rd you’re doing more.
But anyway, there is literally no point in doing this further. Let’s say it’s perfectly amazing in PVP to forgo Crusade and get AW: Might… which just gives you live AW stats.
But in PVE there is a very clear difference in damage. What needs to be done then is to buff AW: Might to let’s say 35% crit(pending tuning) and makes your next finisher 100% crit chance. (then you nerf it for in PVP to its original 20% crit or whatever).
That would be fine i presume, with everyone? Since they need to have as close to as possible equal power to give an opportunity for the player for their pick to matter. Not to have Crusade an auto-pick in PVE.
