I am not opposed to it. I merely don’t believe it would do what you think it would do. Move the cave south and suddenly we will be hearing loud noises from alliance that the horde cave is too close to FWGY and too close to the horde base in general.
Let me be clear: I could give a rat’s caboose about where you move the horde cave to. In fact, lets move it to ABOVE FWGY, like the alliance cave is above SPGY.
Lol people played MUCH differently and for different reasons on a map that was different with different NPCs. This comparison is pretty dumb tbh
That would be fine.
The issue is simply that alliance can’t take IB GY against an equal horde team.
Any solution that moves the horde 2nd spawn point (currently the cave after IB GY is taken) would fix this problem.
If alliance can take IB GY in most games, we’d have much better AVs.
I just think the cleanest solution is to take the cave away as a GY until/unless all defensive GYs are gone. That way the AV 1.12 map doesn’t have to be changed.
What?
I am on record saying I am fine with long queues if it meant better competition. Is that what you meant?
I in fact in my very first post of this thread stated that the cave respawn mechanic should be fixed. And I never claimed alliance were “bad”, but I have pointed out that many don’t want to be in AV or PVP, and judging by the loss rate and the sheer number of semi-afk honor sponges, I feel that is a correct assumption.
Uh, I never claimed moving the cave would do much of anything. 
Alliance can hard turtle their base, even moreso now that the backdoors no longer exist.
Jeeze, if all it takes is 30 minutes to get you to give up, I cannot imagine how you would have felt in early AV.
And I have repeatedly stated that focusing on taking IBGY was a fool’s errand. ESPECIALLY when you have all of your players there, in one focus-able target. My advice has always been to soft cap a NUMBER of things in rapid succession, causing the horde to split up their forces.
If you do not see how this causes havoc in the horde team, you do not actually play horde in AV as you so often claim.
This is absolutely the best solution. Alliance wins by no longer getting stonewalled at IBGY and forced to respawn in their cave from SPGY, and Horde get lower queue times as improved match quality brings more Alliance into games. And nochangers keep the map layout.
This is why no one takes you seriously. If you think the relative position of the choke points don’t matter simply because they’re both “on the way” to Vann/Drek, you’re being willfully obtuse or you’re too ignorant to actually put more than one variable together at a time. And before you get all huffy about “ad hominem” no, this isn’t a fallacy usage, but an argument usage. You have reduced a somewhat complex matter down to a singular data point while expressly ignoring all other compounding data points. Only someone who wants to argue for the sake of arguing, or is literally incapable of handling multivariate concepts would make such an error. Ergo: obtuse or ignorant.
And your advice is complete bunk. Your advice for Alliance is to split forces across SF, IB, and FW in an attempt to only soft-cap those GY and force a Horde response and somehow cause psychological disruption.
A group of 4-5 Horde using trinket to pop back and back-cap from the furthest south first as they move back north would handle this disruption handily. If any of the Horde get killed in the process, they get sent to their starter cave that is well positioned to support both IB and FW. Any Alliance that get killed get sent to SH, assuming it still holds while Alliance have fractured a significant portion of their team to simultaneously cap multiple GY in disparate positions with no strong reinforcement source.
So your grand strategy is: take a bunch of stuff and hope the Horde bicker in BG chat about where to go and what to do long enough that Alliance actually take something.
AKA - Hope the Horde are mouth-breathing levels of bad.
/facedesk
If you soft cap a number of things, you’re going to split up and be followed and decimated by the other team. The deeper you go into offensive territory without a hard capped GY, the farther your reinforcements are.
That’s why horde always focuses on taking SH GY and then establishing a choke at IWB. It’s the least risky strategy in AV (for either team) because if we still have IB GY, we have direct reinforcement flow from IB GY and at worst, our reinforcements are coming from the cave and can recap IB GY on the way to SH GY.
The equivalent could work for alliance if they could take IB GY without facing waves of horde defenders from the cave. They’d be more freed up to consider at least taking out more horde in the center of the map if the horde are respawning at FW GY (or near there) instead of at the cave where respawns will directly attack IB GY faster.
Other strategies are suboptimal, especially if they split up the offense before you can secure reinforcements. Any strategy where alliance splits up risks a higher chance of failure because if alliance loses SF GY and SH GY while focused on offense, their reinforcements are coming from a full 60 seconds away at SP GY.
That gives more than enough time for the opposing defense to divide and conquer and send the whole alliance team north of IWB.
All of this is why the optimal pug strategy is to take the closest GY and establish that as your forward operating base. Anything else risks a much higher chance of failure. It’s just a fact that it’s easier for horde to pull off at SH GY than for alliance at IB GY.
Removing the BG numbers from the queue was a change. They changed diminishing returns on kills. They changed terrain. They changed the ability to MC players out of WSG. And so on.
The dev meme “warts and all” is total BS since that is not what we have. Classic is NOT Vanilla, and there are so many changes that have been made throughout the game that saying “no changes” is meaningless. Claiming these changes don’t count is disingenuous. You don’t have to move a rock or a cave for these changes to impact the game, in fact, that’s why these changes were made . . . to impact the game.
It is not bunk, and I have seen it repeatedly throw confusion into the horde team. And nowhere did I state that anything should “only” be soft capped, but rather to not have your whole team trying to hard cap a single objective like IB, where you create a single target.
On paper, sure. In reality that is not the case. Of late alliance HAVE actually been pushing south at the get go, and damned near every horde goes chasing them down south. Guess what that results in? You guessed it: horde pushed back on their heels and forced south. That alone cancels out the “horde cave too close to SH” argument.
That is precisely the point. Or you can continue to focus on one thing at a time. However that doesn’t seem to be working out very well for you.
Should be fairly easy for them to test. Spawn an AV, time the fastest someone could get to mid from one gate then time the fastest someone could do it from another gate. Make that the delay, done.
No, if you soft cap multiple things, you split up the defensive force, or at worse cause the bulk of the enemy to be pushed back into their territory.
Alternatively have both teams start the game in their own base at their base spawn point.
I think that all three ideas should be done:
These fixes would go a long way toward evening out AV and making it a lot more fun.
That’s not what happens typically though, the defensive group typically stays together and tries to overcome things with numbers.
I have no idea what alliance is like, but I typically see horde calling out how many people are at each position, and we generally focus on the most time sensitive or important one with GYs taking heavy precedence over towers.
Already done.
people that don’t try because it’s a 3 min queue. so if one push fails, they’ll stop trying for a quicker end and a quick requeue.
This whole position of the map is just yada yada.
Hence what I wrote in the post you quoted:
I know players have tested it. I’m saying Blizzard should verify it and get a really good statistical sample of it.
That happens in TBC, so…wait for TBC.
People can argue until they’re blue in the face (and will), but the reality is that Classic is a recreation of Vanilla, and this is how 1.12 AV was in Vanilla. So…that’s that.