This never-ending back and forth about the balance of the map is completely irrelevant. Classic is based on 1.12. This is 1.12 AV. It is what it is, and it’s not going to change…until TBC servers come along.
You have HAVE ZERO IDEA what you’re talking about. You DONT EVEN KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT STRATEGY. There IS NOT ONLY 2 OPTIONS FOR ALLIANCE IN AV. By saying this you prove you know NOTHING about AV.
It already has changed in several ways.
This is like talking to a brick wall. I’m out.
I’m not going to disagree that alliance could usually play better, but playing alliance on this map requires a level of coordination that is rarely there in pugs. It also doesn’t change the fact that alliance are split offense and defense while horde go full offense. It’s well known that once horde own SHGY, they can send any alliance south of there behind that choke at IWB and they can do this before alliance get a hold down south.
Actually, Alliance can go full offense too. We saw it for 15 years and even beginning of classic. It was the famous zerg
They can if horde let them. Zergs aren’t fun so I’m good with a defensive game, but when one side has such a big defensive advantage, even that’s not fun. I love AV. I miss playing AV, but not this AV.
1 Like
It’s really sad there are so many lowbie Alliance alts and Horde players who refuse to understand the fundamental differences that set the pacing for the entire AV game and that a strategy of “just play really really good like” is not a viable one.
This. As every suggestion requires sheer stupidity on the part of the Horde or exceptional coordination that Blizzard specifically nerfed with the elimination of premades.
So the grand strategy is to stall so long that we complete numerous PvE objectives to even break even… whereas Horde require none of these things and if they choose to do it we’re right back to where we started: Horde advantage.
“For Ally to win you just need Ally to do every single advantageous thing together at the right time and hope the Horde do NONE of those things!!”
This isn’t the argument that wins anyone over.
I knew I had you ignored for a reason, but someone quoted this and I couldn’t help but point out how insanely insecure and impotent this is to declare. I’d love to know what university you think constitutes the “top” and why, I need the laugh.
HAHAHAHAHA
How small and fragile is your ego?
3 Likes
What do you mean? Its a PVP map no one “lets” anyone do anything. They fight for it. How comes Horde doesnt need to have the alliance “let them” have SHGY? What do you think happened to the Horde during the premade zerg era of classic when they attacked one of the zergers? they just got killed and they continued the zerging ways
2 Likes
According to many alliance avatars posting here the horde basically sits in the cave while the map pvp’s the alliance into submission and wins the game for them.
In other words, its a joke. But its easier to blame the map then it is to confront the fact that your faction simply doesnt take AV seriously enough as a whole to get more than a win here or there.
Just let them have their pity party. Enough alliance players know the deal and the future rests with them, not these windbags.
2 Likes
The thing is, if there is a change that impacts balance, some of those advantanges and disadvantages could no longer even matter. You didn’t list one of the advantages that alliance has in AV, the fact that there is a place to simply jump over the FW keep fence without having to go through the gate, and the reason is because as things stand, it doesn’t matter.
Changing the cave spawns would be a massive change. Something like that is absolutely needed but there is really no way we can predict what the actual result would be. It may very well turn out that there are other alliance advantages that no one even realizes yet because they don’t matter in the current AV.
I personally prefer the idea of moving the cave south so that it doesn’t really reinforce IBGY (and also makes the middle of FoS the actual meeting point) but keeping the cave res to reinforce FWGY and making a change so that alliance when SPGY is capped spawn at AS. I actually think just turning off cave respawns might flip balance too far against horde. FWGY is a trash GY to defend. IBGY has strong geometry, but that would be really the only strong defensive GY that horde would have with the cave respawns removed, and it’s not THAT strong. They would have one strong defensive point and if they lose it, they are screwed. Doesn’t that sound kind of like the current situation with SHGY? Not as bad, since SHGY isn’t a good defensive GY, but still pretty bad. Imagine if the second alliance GY wasn’t SPGY but instead like FWGY and the approaches to it were wide open.
The cave does win the game for the Horde. It’s the single largest handicap ever put into a BG. It would be like Alliance starting at Blacksmith in AB no horde would queue up.
Sure most Alliance are defeated and have given up winning but you can’t blame them for that after losing 99% of every game for 6 months. Do you really think anything other then blizzard balancing the map will bring back better Alliance players?
Outside a complete turnover in alliance players or allowing full premades again I dont think anything will “fix” AV for the alliance. Mostly because theyre ignoring the actual problem in favor of the one that makes them feel better about themselves.
1 Like
What actual problem? You mean the map related problem that drove Alliance to not try in a map where you lose 99% of the time even when you try?
You can’t just tell alliance to get good on a map that’s trash.
Alterac Valley is a pvp battleground with win conditions. In order to win, those conditions need to be met. It doesnt happen by fluke or coincidence - no one wins by accident.
With that understanding, if one faction is dominating another the most simple and obvious answer is one faction is playing it better than the other faction. There could be a dozen reasons why or how but none of them change the fact that one faction is getting outplayed.
According to the logic here, if one faction is dominating it can only be because one faction must have some kind of unfair advantage. When you put that theory to the test however, it falls apart completely. It doesnt take queue times or the overarching meta into account - or any other variable that would cause a team to lose.
When I last played retail the alliance dominated the 40 man bgs to the tune of 90% winrates and the horde did the same thing - blame the maps. I win 80% of my WSGs so if Im winning less than 10% of my AV’s and IoCs its obvious the map must be to blame! Its called navel gazing. The bonus is I get to bathe in the soothing waves of blissful ignorance and never have to come to terms with my faction simply sucks at AV and its their own fault.
Here in classic premades dominate pugs. Well, that must be because premades get a map advantage, right? If your logic is correct it must be consistent and observable everywhere but it flies apart once you apply it elsewhere which must mean youre barking up the wrong tree.
Its a convenient excuse but doesnt go much farther than that.
1 Like
What
It is ridiculously easy to defend, from the bluffs surrounding it AND from the bridge.
Which is closer to where you died than the base gy, I fail to see an issue here.
What?
Aggressively making things up is not helping your case.
So you expect to defend something while having no risk of damage? AND you are bemoaning the bridge choke? How are you crossing the bridge to get to SP if you already complained about getting ressed in the cave?
FWGY is nothing like it. There is no choke to bottle up attackers, and the cave is on the other side of the map. Are you ACTUALLY attempting to make it look like SPGY is worse than FW? Yikes!
1 Like
Fine. Then put the BG numbers back in the queue and let Alliance queue sync.
Except we know that horde are not better than alliance at pvp, especially to the degree we see in AV. So it’s not a matter of one side simply playing better.
And once we’ve eliminated that the next most logical option is that the map favors one side to a large degree.
Yes this goes back to your previous point, premades beat pugs because they go into the game with a huge inherent advantage. In the case of premades it’s not map advantage it’s that they get to avoid certain RNG checks that pugs don’t.
But since we know horde pugs aren’t inherently better than alliance pugs and AV no longer allows premades we also know it’s not that horde teams are just better.
5 Likes
So why aren’t alliance still zerging? Did they get tired of winning?
Horde defense stops the zerg so yes, alliance zerg if horde let them.
1 Like
I say if 15 can queue for AB then let premades at least go to 15 people in AV. Just dont let more than one premade group into any one AV at a time.
You sure about that? Because I would see if those same pvpers are doing AV as well as AB/WSG and if most of them were I would ask if they just went in there to goof off or take a breather. Its not an either/or deal - there’s a lot of other things it could be or many of them together.
In my earlier retail example horde was considered the dominant pvp faction at the time but they didnt come close to competing in the 40 man bgs. How come? Largely because those bgs were full of bots, afkers and fresh (undergeared) level capped players so competitive players would just blacklist them rather than try and carry 30 plus people.
Not so different from alliance rankers sticking to the other 2 bgs they can premade in and skipping AV like they do in classic. So yeah, before I made the leap to the map, I would check on those other things first.
The playing field might be close to even for pugs on both factions talent wise but that doesnt automatically equate to a 50/50 split in AV wins. Things like queue times play a role. The ranking meta has something to say about it. There’s so much more that goes into it Im kinda miffed that people can just hang their hats on the map and call it a day.