LoL I mean you continue to show you don’t even understand the basics of how flags work in AV. And no horde will very commonly have 10+ rezzing at the cave, you’d understand why, but see above.
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Yeah right I don’t know anyting, you know everything, but you can’t start to give any explanation except attacking me personally. It pretty much shows who’s wrong in this conversation.
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So you don’t seem to understand that flags have to be held until they hard cap before you can start rezzing there.
As soon as SHGY soft caps alliance are now unable to reinforce anyone south as they will be trapped rezzing as SPGY. Meanwhile horde can swing some people south plus any horde who die north end up rezzing at the cave. That very quickly swings the cave to 20 people rezzing there against a decreasing number of alliance at IBGY as they can’t reinforce. Giving the horde multiple rezs to wipe alliance, they don’t have to wipe the entire team in one rez.
But once again you have to have a basic understanding of AV flags and rez spots to understand that.
Fix the cave rez and fix the SF GY sending people to aid station issue please.
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Of course I know that, the example was given when IBGY is HARD CAPPED by alliance. Otherwise I would not have given the example of the 10 cycles appliyng to alliance rezzing at IBGY since there is no 10 cycle rez applying to soft capped gy …
That my friend is not an imbalance. It’s a strategic choice made by the alliance to soft capped IBGY and let horde soft capped SHGY. All your reasoning applies the same to the Horde. Horde are unable to reinforce anyone north as they will be trapped rezzing in the cave. The only difference is still only the 20 rez cycles that barely ever applies.
And once again you’re proved wrong.
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No what he was saying is a bit different. In realistic gaming conditions, Alliance usually have to trade IB GY for SH GY. Because we need to go for IB GY with overwhelming force, which necessarily means that we can’t keep back enough people to hold SH GY. (I’m talking about a normal Alliance team, and not when my team of sweaty rankers are defending SH GY, because no one has ever denied that a team of sweaty rankers can win AV games for Alliance).
So just bear with me a second and let’s only talk in terms of reinforcements to IB GY. In this situation, you are comparing Alliance reinforcing IB GY team from SP GY (since they have given up SH GY in favor of trying to take IB GY), versus Horde reinforcing their IB GY team from their cave.
It’s also not only distance and the number of rezzes. Because if Alliance has lost SH GY, the choke at SH GY/IW Bunker keeps the Alliance rezzing from SP GY to reach IB GY again before it hard caps. Even if let’s say the choke is not perfect, it is still an impediment. Alliance can’t put that kind of impediment between the Horde cave and IB GY.
This is where the vast disparity comes in. This is the key: That the Horde cave is a non-capturable and therefore guaranteed source of reinforcements of up to 20 at a time, with a travel distance of only 26 - 40 seconds, with nothing between the cave and their objective of trying to take IB GY back from the Alliance.
Imagine how games would go if Alliance had a non-capturable source of reinforcements, of up to 20 at a time, only 26 - 40 seconds away, with nothing between that source and their objective of trying to defend IB GY.
Imagine that, instead of their current condition of having a capturable source of reinforcements (SP GY), of up to only 10 at a time, almost 2 minutes away from IB GY, with a chokepoint at a now-Horde-controlled SH GY in-between.
I actually think you are close to getting it here and so I was explaining it a bit more above.
I also think it doesn’t matter that much whether the horde cave is 26 seconds away or 40 seconds away or whether it rezzed 10 or 15 or 20 at a time. By that I mean, it doesn’t matter nearly as much as the fact that the horde cave is there and in-play at all when horde controls other GYs. Because regardless of how far away SP GY–or let’s even say SH GY–is from IB GY, the GY is capturable and therefore it, as a source of reinforcements, is stoppable. Alliance can’t capture the Horde cave and stop reinforcements coming from there.
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And here we have the best of the best on Alliance side, echoing the exact same thing we’ve been saying for almost 4k posts now. It’s time to start applying a bit of scorched earth to this thread and get the people out who are standing in the way of getting the map fixed.
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I highly doubt Blizzard cares one iota about what literally any Horde / Alliance player thinks on this thread. I am sure they have their own simulations that show…who am I kidding. Like they spent the money to sim this. Long story short, they have abandoned any semblance of attempting to balance AV. Nothing that is said on this thread is going to change that stance. #sigh.
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Edit: And I will happily eat my words if Blizzard finally does ANYTHING useful in AV to balance the map so I can have good games and potentially shorter queues.
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And this is why I hardly post on the matter anymore. I’m not convincing other players who have made their minds up and Blizzard just doesn’t care.
I haven’t set foot in AV for months now because of it and for most alliance it’s the same. AV is a dead BG, like so many parts of this abandoned game. Classic is a pale shadow of WoW.
I just don’t understand how he doesn’t get this how many times does it need to be explained.
You don’t have to trade SHGY for IBGY, it’s just a way to quicken the game.
And you can’t stop horde spawning in cave, but you can turn the entrance to the cave into a meat grinder while alliance do what they want in the south.
Oh you don’t???
News to me.
Good luck having a defense at SHGY VS 40 horde because they don’t NEED TO DEFEND IBGY because of THEIR CAVE being right NEXT TO IT.
In your world I guess 10 alliance can beat a 40 man horde assault.
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Come on now. Horde aren’t sending 40 to SHGY if you are assaulting IBGY. Literally the only time that happens is when the gates open. After that there will never be 40 Horde there. It will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 15-30 and that number fluctuates in direct response to whatever Alliance is doing.
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Edit: And even when the gates open, Horde is looking to intercept first meaning that first real skirmish usually happens either by the bunkers or west of SFGY.
What??
Even hawne pointed it out that this is what happens…
Horde send all 40 to shgy then they auto win if capped, they can now send 15 back to IBGY for 10 rez cycles to send all alliance up north.
You can send 2 to SFGY and cap it before ANY ALLIANCE MAKE IT THERE.
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Hawne is flat out wrong.
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This is how it works. Gates open. Horde is literally riding to the FOS waiting for a call of left or right. If left, first major skirmish happens west of SFGY. If right, first major skirmish happens by Alliance controlled bunkers. Roughly 15 or so Horde will keep going to SHGY ignoring this call.
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Edit 1: The only time you get 40 at SHGY is when Alliance turtles it or have been pushed back and are no longer pushing offensive objectives.
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Edit 2 lol: The goal with this first skirmish is to force all Alliance to SHGY so the game becomes a turtle. The earlier we can force an Alliance turtle, the sooner the game is 100% ours. Ultimately this is something I don’t think people who play only Alliance really get. You dictate how Horde play the map just by choosing your goal. Best goal? SFGY. It is almost never the choice though.
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Edit 3: And I am not saying any of that is foolproof. I am just saying that realistically, the first skirmish happens on Alliance terms where ever Alliance chooses to fight. The absolute 100% worst choice is SHGY because then you are most likely done before the game even started. Not saying the map is fair. Definitely isn’t. But I am saying that you all are way less helpless regarding SHGY than you are giving yourselves credit for. You aren’t getting 40 horde there. You are getting 15. Treat it that way, keep enough to hold it down, and send the rest of offense.
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We tried SFGY it also doesn’t work and is attacked from both sides.
Its not a graveyard you can defend easily.
It’s not better than SHGY.
You need to trust me on this. ANYTHING is better than SHGY. It isn’t about holding it. It is about forcing Horde to do anything but send wave after wave at SHGY. As soon as we are able to do that, the game is over. Without exception. Whether because we eventually take SHGY or because Alliance can’t stop us from summoning Ice Dad and he takes SHGY.
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Straight up, you have to play offense to have any prayer at winning. Wave attacking SFGY from SHGY is vastly superior to sitting at SHGY. Attacking SFGY, taking it, then ignoring it and moving to IBGY while Horde zug zug SFGY is also effective. IBGY fall back to SFGY is also effective.
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You might not win doing any of these things, but you at least have a chance to win. If you sit at SHGY, the game is ours. Every. Single. Time. Because that is exactly what we want you to do.
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Edit: And just to be 100% clear. I am not talking “send 40 on offense and give up SHGY.” That’s a sure fire loss too. You can hold SHGY with 15-20 decent players. But you can’t win in AV unless you split Horde up. Horde is already waiting for you to split us. Our entire first wave is centered around it in fact.
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And that’s the crux of the problem. It is ridiculously difficult for alliance to recover but extremely easy for horde to do so.
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The problem is that’s, literally, an uphill battle. For a good portion of SFGY, if you die there you get sent all the way back to the Aid Station and have a long ride back to the front. So if the horde see alliance going to SF and they defend SF (which they can soft cap before alliance can get there) then many of those alliance are getting taken out of the battle for up to a 30 second rez and a minute or more ride.
That’s a lot of defenders who are not doing anything. Thus, if alliance go SF it will often give horde both SF and SH. Alliance have to play very carefully, know where to die at SF, and not get baited into dying in the wrong spot. All while keeping enough at SH to hold it while they try to cap SF.
A very tall order when all horde have to do is sit in the right spot and knock down alliance attempts to get by.
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For sure. I am not trying to downplay the map advantage with my comments or say that it is easy to do. Far from it. I am definitely not saying taking SFGY is easy by any stretch. The Aid Station rez is maybe the stupidest bug in the entire map. I swear that has more to do with the lack of SFGY as an option than anything.
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But yeah, I don’t want that to come off as me saying Alliance have some way to win consistently. You don’t. It is mainly explaining that 40 at SHGY is a loss. Every game. Without exception. My primary issue with IBGY is that it almost always comes from Alliance going left (Horde perspective) and that allows us to frost nova way too many by SFGY halting the initial zerg rush to IBGY. Basically we have picked off 5+ from an offensive group that needs as many as possible to take IBGY and hold it. If the goal is just to take it then fall back to SFGY then it works fine. But that isn’t common in my experience and seems hard to coordinate without a good shot caller.
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