Again, you’re trolling.
Take a look at WCL data for yourself. In TOGC Fury and Ret are almost exactly equal on average with Ret being about 1% ahead.
But the best Fury’s are better than the best Rets.
And if you go back to Ulduar where Fury had even less gear they were decently ahead of Ret even with Ret’s buff. With the best Fury’s being far above the best Rets.
But again, you’re trolling.
And that’s all percentiles too, where Ret skews higher because it is just easy to play and hard to screw up rotation-wise. At higher percentiles, as you said, Fury has a lead, and as far as real PvE classes go, Ret is only better than Destro/Demo/Blood/MM/Arms on “All Bosses” which I’m not sure if that includes Faction Champs, but it seems like it might. So we’re basically the very bottom of the middle. On Beasts of Northrend 99%, we are the worst PvE class besides Blood DK/Arms. On every individual fight in TOGC (besides Faction Champs where our Seal of Command somehow avoids the cleave damage reduction), we are worse than Fury at the 99% percentile. And by significant amounts too, except for Twin Val’kyr where we are pretty close to their lead because of how that fight favors us (no DPS loss from switching targets, able to shield wall vortex instead of changing essence, passive cleave on the off-target).
Pretty sure he’s trolling.
Im not trolling, im living in the present and not the past, RETS ARE BETTER DEAL WITH IT, better yet enjoy it, never know when the nerf hammer comes. Fury is still boring lol while rets fun. Also a small nerf really wont hurt rets at all but hey keeps crying like a rich kid begging for money.
I’m not trolling, the things you guys are stating does not reflect reality lmao, rets are great. lolol
Yes, you are.
Or you’re just completely delusional and don’t know how to evaluate data.
No, rets are in an amazing spot, like what do yall want?
No, rets are in an amazing spot, like what do yall want?
We want exactly nothing. We want the game to stay the way it is now, in regards to Retribution. That’s what we’ve been saying on this entire thread, not sure if you read it or not.
I read it, like damn. You guys dont like hearing that ret paladins are amazing? and that a small nerf would be that bad? Like sure take more hand outs. Also you guys like to pretend that ret is a poor performance class when its not, get a grip and deal with your pally superiority.
Wrath classic wouldnt have half the players if they left it the same as original release. Heck half the playerbase left at launch of wrath this time around because RDF wasnt around.
The other half would have left because of how slow leveling is and JJ was never introduced.
Players are different than they were in 2008. They want their purple pixels as fast as they can get them and log out for a week.
Small nerf
Small? Forget it Donny, you’re out of your element!
Like damn, imagine being the best class in the game , stream rolling thought content others struggle with, then whine about fairness when the possibility of a small nerf comes?
Reading your posts is hard on the eyes, what are you even on about? Steam rolling through content others struggle with, what do you even mean? Steam rolling through raids? HUH? Where’s these 25 ret raids being steam rolled through?
25 man ret raids? Are you ok ?
Now I think you’re being misleading, my point was that the big ret pieces are a lot less contested than the big pieces for ArP users or casters. Further, Ret without SM would be slightly ahead of Ele based on projections, putting it ahead of Rogues, Shamans, and Blood/UH DK (slightly behind Frost). That isn’t bottom DPS, that’s lower middle of the pack.
This is a similar spot to where warriors would be without SM and warriors have much more competition.
DKs fall off hard in full bis ICC, that’s just WOTLK. It’s not a great place to be.
Not rets though, they were bad in Ulduar so they should keep those buffs for ICC. There’s always a spec on the bottom and arguing that it shouldn’t be yours is what every player in the game does.
If we got SM after a few months, we would be slightly better off than we were in pre-buff Ulduar, yes, but it would be pretty similar to where we were at post-buff in Ulduar, still not far from the bottom, lower end of the middle of the pack at best.
In a perfect world I’d expect that all 3 users of the end game legendary would top the meters once they acquired it (as prog is mostly over). That isn’t what Wrath was and it seems that Warriors/Pallies/DKs were all balanced around the potential of SM.
Not always. Such as Algalon progress, sure AM has slightly less reduction on the AoE damage, but it does nothing to reduce tank damage which was a big factor in Algalon progress.
This isn’t what I mean, what I mean is that the AM spec always exists (with, let’s be honest, the 2nd best raid cooldown in the game). If a pally is “forced” to run DSac is means they are more valuable on that fight than if they did an extra ~350 dps and only had AM.
Other specs don’t get this option. It’s strong as hell.
And we’ve already gone over utility many times, our real only claim to fame is the 3% damage buff that no other meta class brings now. If we were nerfed to bottom damage without SM, people may look to other sources.
Just because you say this doesn’t make it true. Ret bringing 3% is very good, running extra DSacs or AMs are generally also very good. Having required utility on harder bosses means you get in groups. Salv, BoP and Freedoms are very nice abilities to have on lots of fights, not to mention the clutch factor of LoH.
Paladins have some of the best stackable utility in the game, right up there with Druids. I am also not considering Might/Wis/etc as part of this, although it’s likely a factor in 10 mans.
Another daily reminder that it’s absurd that running 4-5 paladins in a raid and 1 warrior and hunter is considered “good” representation.
How is it the same scenario when Feral is a tier above classes like Ret/Fury/MM/Spriest on DPS, S+ tier tied only with Fire Mage?
Because Ret is still leapfrogging a bunch of specs when they are given ~1.3k from the Ulduar adjustments. Raids would still be running 1 Ret without them, they are no longer needed and have distorted scaling.
Note Blizzard looks to player expectations here. Retribution has always been expected to be a top 5 DPS in ICC. I don’t know what the problem is with that statement there. You’re also twisting it out of context to fit your argument.
It’s interesting that Ret should keep their ~1.3k dps due to “player expectations” but other specs stay where they just end up based on optimisations.
Do these expectations include the ret players who simmed ICC gear in P1 like yourself? Boy it must suck to be a combat rogue who are looking pretty grim after people were thinking they’d pop off in ICC. Not Ret though, because Ret was bad in Ulduar.
If you reverted the buffs, the number of Retribution Paladins may well go to 0 for many raids, at least on progression
You’ve said it yourself that DSac is going to be valuable in certain ICC fights (some, not all, I agree). You simply can’t pull more DSacs out of nowhere, it comes from the Ret pally. I wouldn’t expect double Prot Pally to be the early meta either.
Once again, most people did expect Retribution to be somewhere near the top 5 here in ICC BiS. This has always been a common talking point. “Wait until ICC when Retribution will finally be a top 5 DPS class” etc was a common sentiment. I’m not super familiar with 2010 but I’ve heard many people say that Retribution was quite strong in ICC originally, which it wouldn’t be in Classic without the taunt glyph.
No? The argument was that Ret was balanced around it’s tier bonus (wasn’t really but w/e) and not having it was why they were on the bottom. This is different to saying “top 5” in ICC, especially when they aren’t even close to that without arbitrary buffs.
I already answered that, Retribution players began rerolling, raids began to take Arcane mage instead for 3% damage, and Retribution fell further and further behind literally every other class on logs. We literally were unviable if you didn’t need the DSAC for Algalon. They claimed representation was fine and then a month later changed their minds on that.
Note this representation drop off didn’t really show up in log statistics, although someone did leave the team between those two events.
On top of that, it subverts the expectations that everyone has regarding Ret being a strong DPS in ICC.
I wonder if by “everyone” you mean Ret Pallies, in which case I’m not sure we should be using the expectation of a spec’s playerbase to balance around.
This is what happened with Feral and look where we are now.
You should re read this comment to yourself again Snipsy. Apply that to Retribution and it’s literally exactly the same. People expect Retribution to be strong DPS in ICC.
You don’t see a different between reverting a random dps glyph that never existed in wrath and knocking down specs where it’s actually their time to shine?
At the end of the day Blizzard made statements that don’t hold up with where Ret and Feral are looking to be in ICC, what is the point of them communicating if they don’t follow their original goals?
You’re talking about Paladins steam rolling through content other classes struggle with. WHAT CONTENT? Raids? How are they steam rolling raids? Dungeons? Everyone steam rolls dungeons.
What content are Paladins “steam rolling” that other classes “struggle” with?
Everything mate, paladin got it on ez mode. You don’t like it? Go kick rocks. If you don’t like your paladin superiority then go re roll another class lol.
Okay level 10 Hunter.
Ok chosen one.
Yeah, that’s with P2 buffs. I’m talking about, without P2 buffs. Start with 16.5k, subtract ~1.3k to remove buffs, now we are 15.2k, and then start from there. Subtract another 1k for Shadowmourne, and we are at 14.2k on 180s P4. We would only be “tied” w/ Ele in full BiS, with SM (still behind 175 dps). And that is, all, WITH TAJ, a trinket broken in our favor.
running extra DSacs or AMs are generally also very good. Having required utility on harder bosses means you get in groups. Salv, BoP and Freedoms are very nice abilities to have on lots of fights, not to mention the clutch factor of LoH.
Sure that stuff is all good, but when it’s your 5th set of those utilities, it is a lot less impactful / necessary. It doesn’t inherently justify removing the buff.
Prot/Holy representation is exactly what hurts is in this regard. They bring all the same utility besides the 3% damage. Stop conflating Prot/Holy representation with Retribution. If Prot Warrior was meta tank, and they took 2-3 to every raid, would you expect them to nerf Fury?
Do these expectations include the ret players who simmed ICC gear in P1 like yourself?
We couldn’t sim ICC gear until about 2 weeks ago when we tested TAJ.
You’ve said it yourself that DSac is going to be valuable in certain ICC fights (some, not all, I agree). You simply can’t pull more DSacs out of nowhere, it comes from the Ret pally
Actually most people pull DSACs out of their other paladin specs. Double Prot and Double Holy is very popular in raids. Again, your 4th-5th DSAC is less impactful, and on most fights unnecessary, and you will be bringing prot/holy typically regardless. Not saying it’s useless though. But it is fairly taxed DPS-wise.
No? The argument was that Ret was balanced around it’s tier bonus (wasn’t really but w/e) and not having it was why they were on the bottom. This is different to saying “top 5” in ICC, especially when they aren’t even close to that without arbitrary buffs.
Retribution being very strong DPS in ICC is the common sentiment, as well as the reality of 2010 ICC. Just check out the Light Club discord, there is months of ICC high DPS expectations there, before we could sim any of ICC because we didn’t know how TAJ was going to work. Yes, not having the tier bonuses and TAJ is why we were on the bottom in earlier phases, because we were “balanced” around them in this patch. “Balanced” here means, kept from being too low on DPS. It is not mutually exclusive with where Retribution is now, which I would say is still balanced and matches the 2010 experience. Also, we underwent major class changes going into ICC, so the set bonuses and TAJ were the answer to re-balancing the class to a strong DPS.
It is not limited to Retribution players either, many people I’ve spoken to were under the impression that Retribution did really good damage in ICC. And we did do good damage in ICC, and all the raids, really, back in 2009-2010. We topped DPS all the time in Naxx, Ulduar, ICC, etc.
Raids would still be running 1 Ret without them, they are no longer needed and have distorted scaling.
Would they still run 1 Ret? I’m not so sure on that, especially for progress. For progression I think BM might become the 3% damage meta if Retribution buffs were reverted before release, because you could have your Hunter drop down to BM and then bring another Feral or Fire mage instead of Retribution, and I’m pretty sure it would be better DPS. The DPS gained from having Fire/Feral over unbuffed Retribution is more than the DPS lost from having your Hunter drop from SV/MM to BM.
Even if our utility was crucial, let’s say I make a class called Bard. Bard only does 5,000 dps, but it gives a utility buff that is necessary on progression, so everyone must bring 1 Bard. Is this a good thing? Do they not need a buff, simply because they have the utility that is necessary and get a raid spot? Using hyperbole to illustrate my point here. Would anyone enjoy playing Bard?
I wonder if by “everyone” you mean Ret Pallies, in which case I’m not sure we should be using the expectation of a spec’s playerbase to balance around.
No, I mean most people. Most people were under the impression that Retribution is a strong DPS class in ICC, and why? Because it was, in 2010. And if you look back at elitist jerks forum posts, they shared that sentiment as well. Retribution often topped DPS in 2010 ICC, or could at least hang in the top 5 easily, and even in the phases before that as well. It’s not unheard of for Ret to top DPS in any of the raids back then for multiple reasons. In ICC on Classic, Retribution will finally match not only player expectations, but also the player experience in 2009-2010 ICC. Retribution for all of Wrath classic so far has not matched the experience in 2009-2010, where we performed relatively so much better.
Maybe you don’t think player expectations matter, but Blizzard clearly does based on their statements. Nerfing a class below where they are expected to be is always going to cause backlash, and will cause those players to become disillusioned with their class and have no fun (it’s a video game after all, you won’t play if you don’t have fun). Blizzard is well within reason to be concerned about that, as it affects their bottom line: subscriber count.
Note this representation drop off didn’t really show up in log statistics, although someone did leave the team between those two events.
Except I think it does.
Aggrend’s original post happened on November 22, 2023 when they said they would not buff Retribution. This is the tail end of Naxxramas. Ulduar launched on Jan 19.
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/1015#region=1&class=Paladin&spec=Retribution×pan=1000
Our amount of parses in Naxx over 2 week windows declined from the 1,712,371 pre-Aggrend-post-peak (Nov 6 - Nov 20) to 947,437 (Jan 2 - Jan 16). So we lost a whopping 55% of our spec representation, and had 55% less parses from the peak of Naxx (right before Aggrend’s post) to the release of Ulduar. You were left with 45% of the previous Retribution players.
Am I missing something here? That is an absolutely massive loss in representation, if I am reading this correctly. This looks like it probably was a major factor in why they buffed us.
Because when the damage checks actually matter, it doesn’t matter how much utility you offer, you WILL be left out in the cold if you are not within 5% of other melee.