We need more support specs, not less! Its GOOD they dared to try new things, we need innovation not the same old stale things.
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âWe need more innovation!â
Said in defense of a gamestyle that undoes 10+ years of gameplay innovations that utilizes archaic design principlesâŚ
This suggestions never makes any sense. Itâs always followed by âchange the holy trinityâ and make it 2 dps (or 3 depending on whoâs writing it), 1 tank, 1 healer, and 1 support spec.
People already do not like aug and some yâall want to make que times longer and force players to play support roles?
Support specs donât work in a game like WOW. Everyone likes to min/max their character and it always feels bad when Blizzard tunes a class around a buff their class doesnât provide themselves but an external. Priest have been suggestions P.I. be a self buff for ages now.
Definitely need less. The perfect number of support specs to have would be 0. The ideal âsupportâ class is a paladin. They bring a lot of utility to the table without outright being mandatory.
Delete/rework Aug.
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Priests, especially Shadow, are not a support spec, so using their own ability to buff allies is not something that current priests like very much, but if it were in a support spec, this would be different. In my opinion, the biggest problem with the aug is that he is the only support in the game, when there are others, they will only be an option, not the rule.
The way Aug works today is good, it provides extra defense and lower damage, compared to other regular DPS. However, you donât have another support to put in place of Aug if you want more survivability.
Another thing that puts Aug in a very favorable position is how M+ is being planned and the need for extra defense. In many encounters without an Aug you would die from Oneshot, and this is a terrible design that needs to be changed.
Serious question, really. For people that think adding more support specs to the game will âfixâ the Aug problem. What exactly do you see the other support specs doing? What would they bring to the table?
Iâm just not sure how adding more is a solution. I have read others say that DH 3rd spec should be a support spec and that they can specialize in debuffing enemies. Cool. Howâs that any different from the AUG problem? If the new DH support spec debuffs enemies to do less dmg, I presume, wouldnât you now want that spec? What if high-end players find that you can double up on support specs and pull GIGa big because Aug and the new 3rd spec DH increase survivability to the point where that becomes the new meta?
Additionally, Aug provides vers to other classes. What would these other support specs contribute that wouldnât be min/max by players?
Help me understand how adding more support specs fixes the problem.
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Not sure if the support spec can work in the long term.
Will a raid of only support, no pure dps would work?
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What would they bring? The same as Aug, but in a different way.
Iâll use an example that I would like as a support class, the monk. A support monk would have similar things to an Aug; they would increase alliesâ damage using some buff, whether through primary statistics or something like the paladinsâ Blessing of Summer, maybe a damage proc. But the important thing is that they would have a maintenance buff that strengthens alliesâ damage.
They would improve alliesâ survivability. How? Damage reduction buffs, shields, health increases, or something like that. There should be some form of enhancement for the tank; as a monk, it could be a maintenance buff that increases the tanksâ dodge.
Regarding versatility and critical strike, these are secondary status buffs that could be in the support spec in some way. Perhaps a monk could bring versatility + haste. The possibilities are numerous.
I think the important thing is to define something that supports have more compared to a regular damage dealer and what they lose for having this. Letâs imagine that somehow every support brings less overall damage but provides more utility and survivability.
Regarding stacking supports, this is easier to resolve. Just put a diminishing effect on the buffs; the more supports you have, the weaker they are together.
This, of course, would create a situation where you always want to have some supports, but never too many (this already happens with Aug).
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Regarding a DH support, using debuffs, I imagine it would be more difficult to implement and perhaps not even possible. So, I donât advocate for that idea.
A DH support spec? YES PLSS
A debuffer support? NO THANKS
I highly doubt they will rework it to be a tank spec as its a dps spec technically now. My guess is when they give up they will just make it a dps caster which is a shame
Yes. At the same time we have mage and warlock with each 3 dps caster specs. So itâs not improbable. Pretty sure they can work something out with aug. Maybe aug could augment itself instead of the party. Personally would love a melee dps spec, but that would probably be too close to shaman?
Yea that kinda makes sense, basically the 2 handed enhancement that everybody always wanted
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Yeah and that would kinda justify the fact evoker can wear 2h sword already
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Whatâs the difference between debuffing enemies and buffing allies?
Imagine you have 100 HP. An enemy does 110 dmg.
- A) You buff your ally and provide a shield for 40 and therefore itâll be 140HP - 110 dmg resulting in 30 HP left.
- B) You debuff an enemy resulting in lowering their dmg done by 40 so now they do 70 dmg. Now when they attack you at 70 dmg your 100 DP goes down to 30 HP.
Whatâs the difference between A and B? They both achieve the same goal.
Adding even more primary stat into the game from external sources does not sound like a good idea. Just saying.
By doing this, you would be making that support class mandatory at high-end levels (and low-end levels for those just wanting a carry/not doing mechanics, etc.)
Some classes scale really well from secondary stats and some do not. If aug and this hypothetical new spec you created both give Vers then be prepared for double support one dps and Giga pulling in M+.
They implemented something like this in raids for Aug which is why 2 augs is the optimal number of Augs to have. I worry lies with what buff becomes weaker and when. Once again, some classes prefer certain stats over others. What if the buff you want is weaken because someone new playing the spec buffs you without knowing the DR?
This would also cause players to pull out the spreadsheets to be optimal. Who should I optimize and when? Who do I avoid?
These may cause problems
These are the buffs a Support spec can possibly add:
- Primary stat
- Secondary stat
- Haste
- Mastery
- Versatility
- Critical Strike
At some point, via adding more support specs, you will eventually be overlapping buffs. I know you mentioned adding a system in play to prevent support spec stacking but thatâs counterintuitive. You want players to like playing support spec but not together? Now someone has to play something else or cause DR? If not, you would have buffs that either stack or buffs that go hand-in-hand with a class to create a really OP spec. Now you have a new meta comp.
I donât believe the support spec is sustainable in WOW.
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By your logic we should delete every class and talent spec except warrior with protection, priest with holy and mage with frost.
Afterall, all other specs just do the same, only differently, thereâs no point to that, right? Dont want players to min max all those different specs so just delete them all.
There, fixxed the gameâŚoh wait
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I think the main idea of introducing other competitive support specs is that then it will create more flexibility in group composition especially in M+ when you are limited to only 5.
By having other support specs whatever they may be means it gives Dev/Pres more opportunities to be in the party rather then the usual we already have Aug we donât need Dev or Pres.
For example, if say there was 2 more support specs, this allows firstly more opportunities for different combinations of classes to then fill in roles.
Team A might have say a Paladin Support, so they run Dev as a dps, Team B has a Druid Support, so they run with a Pres Healer, Team C runs Aug so they then fill in with whatever dps and healer theyâll need.
Simple to understand, the issue with solely one support limited to one class means the other specs, in this case Dev/Pres become less wanted or viable especially in smaller group content due to limited numbers.
The only reason why youâd run 2 Evokers especially in M+ is either they are completely over tuned and their dps or hps is so good it brings better value then what else is available, outside this rare scenario why would you bring them?, Aug brings exactly what they do and more.
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Yeah I mean I think the only other situation I can think of is if m+ timers go back to revolving around actually completing a key quickly.
Part of the reason aug is so oppressive right now is that the best way to time keys at a decent to high level is (and has been for a while) simply to survive. Generally if you can do that and your group DPS is average, youâll time the key.
A paradigm shift back to needing really great overall DPS to make timers or to beat certain critical time breaks on pulls/bosses probably still wouldnât dethrone Aug at the super high key level, but it would certainly help to open up more viable comps.
Wouldnât adding more support specs perpetuate one of the Aug problems? Right now, you mentioned that adding more support specs would alleviate the need to always run Aug and give Preservation/Devastation evokers more playtime.
However, wouldnât the new support spec create the same issue for another class? Iâll use DH as an example. If DH does get a support spec, whatâs stopping players from just bringing that support spec over Havoc? The support spec would bring Chaos Brand and the class utility that is given to them.
Sure, I see your logic, but it feels like you might be missing the bigger picture. Or perhaps, I may be overthinking it. If Paladin brought support with its new spec, whatâs stopping players from just wanting that new Paladin support spec over Retribution Paladin?
Wouldnât you just be shifting which spec gets less wanted? Additionally, support specs are either really good and you want them, or theyâre really bad and you donât. How would they balance all of these new support specs?
It seems like your stance is about being able to bring Preservation and Devastation to keys and raids by adding more support specs. Wouldnât the easier answer be to rework Aug? By doing so, you avoid shifting which specs get less wanted and a lot of tuning that seems unachievable.
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I donât think youâre over thinking it, and broadly speaking I agree with your conclusions on what more support specs being added actually means.
Personally I think Aug was an awful design call (gosh dangit I hate it for so many reasons otherwise), but for one primary reason: itâs too much. It buffs primary stat (bad call) which in turn buffs damage/survivability/healing/spec throughout, it buffs survivability in addition through versatility buffs and health boosts not to mention shields.
The biggest issue around it is a complete and utter lack of discussion of what the design philosophy behind âsupportsâ should be. Just that there should be âmore supportsâ. But even within the group that wants âsupportsâ there is no clear definition of what supports actually look like just a desire for more.
If weâre to have supports, and not have them in a required OP state, then personally think a handful of things need to occur. Aug should not buff survivability. At all. No shields, no versatility, no health/speed aura. Ebon Might should also not buff primary stat at all - it should either be a strict damage buff (~5% range) or if more, strictly only applicable to dps. Minor compensation here to allow if not near then fulltime Ebon Might rolling time so long you are casting.
Still would have cheat death, still would have healing effectiveness buffs, still would have aoe stuns out the wazoo, and can still do anything else an evoker can do which is a fairly high amount of things. Personally think thats plenty for any one spec to do. And if future supports was more like that, then I could live with it.
I wouldnât love it, still think supports in a game with as broad functioning classes as weâve got is an awful idea and is gonna end up removing utility from other specs to justify supports existance, but if people wanna role play out their savior complexes then whatever. At least the aforementioned design space is healthier for the game overall.
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If they really wanted to add support to the game, they would give each class a support spec, and the group compo would become 2 dps, 1 tank 1 healer and 1 support. They would rearrange raids with about the same ratio. I believe that could work. But there is no way having only evoker the choice for support is good for the game
I dont understand the hate or most of the arguments.
Imagine if we had been playing the game the whole time with only tank and healers. Then they introduce a dps spec. Everyone is gonna play it, of course. If you add even more dps specs, there will be more variety.
The meta crying that is happening here is also funny since we have what 13 classes, thats lets say 40-50 dps specs. And yet the meta is always the same 3-4 specs. Is that good? No! Do we argue to delete all other specs / delete the meta specs? No, again.
More choices is always a good thing to prevent us sitting in a tunnel / hole in the ground.
Meta arguments, especially in a 20 year old game thats NEVER been balanced properly should not be any deciding factor in what stays or goes.
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