Auction house is getting more and more PvP

I’m very interested in farming gold, to buy stuff from the BMAH and to buy WoW token for my gametime. So I joined a professional goldmaking discord in SL to improve myself. But what I experienced there is partly total madness and manipulation of market and prices.
I suppose their are not that many people as deep into that topic as I am now so I need to explain some things to point out what’s going wrong. Sorry for the following wall of text :stuck_out_tongue:

I’ve talked to some people now in that specific discord. Many do really any kind of stuff you can imagine from transmog to current profession stuff and they do it on multiple servers. Especially those people don’t want to have any competition. They use several tricks and are also very active on the auction house, to controll it they way they wan’t.

How do they control the market?

So first of all these people have so much gold, a normal player couldn’t imagine. We’re talking about billions here. So if you annoy them by beeing as active as they are on the auction house, they just dump the prizes either to force you into zero win or negative business or to buy off your stuff and sell it later for higher prizes. Or they just cancel as often as possible .So that you never sell someting and just dump the price yourself because you just want to get rid of the stuff finally. Furthermore they buy all of one product. Let’s take flasks or ores for example, to reset prices. It’s a common tactic to buy all ores herbs etc. before a bigger patch comes out. If normal people then just want to go and buy some stuff for their legendarys or flasks, the materials are often more expensive then the product at the end. So they can sell their product under material prices because they bought them much cheaper as they are after the reset. And in the end there’s the baiting stuff, lets say you put one ore for 1 gold which normally would cost 20g or more. Then a player with less AH experience or just imprudence comes and places some hundred ores for 1 gold. Now the baiter can buy them all to sell them later. It also works the other direction to put one ore for an abnormal amount of gold and someone not paying atention who buys multiple ores buying that expensive one accidently.

How can they control so many different products?

Most of them bypass the new auction house throttle for cancel scans etc. just by having multiple accounts only for starting and canceling auctions. I would suggest make using the AH only work on 1 account the same way pet battle is working. No one needs to have 5 accounts at the same time on the auction house perma canceling and auctioning.

Where do they get all the stuff to sell?

First thing is professions, there are a lot of profitable things you can craft and actually earn a lot of money in the AH. Be sure that all those things that make you easy money by just buying materials and crafting are controlled by any of these players i mentioned. Another way to get stuff to sell, are server transfers. They just transfer on a server were stuff is usually cheap and fill a whole guild bank with everything they can snipe including some TCG mounts and pets and other stuff and then transfer this full guild bank to another server and sell everything there over time.

How can they cancel and start auctions so fast, do they use bots?

No most of them don’t, (even if there are a lot of AH bots too, making the situation worse) they just use a certain addon called TSM (trade skill master) which makes auctioning so much easier. In the auction house this addon is a big advantage towards players that don’t have it. I use it myself because you can’t cancel fast enough without it and won’t sell much especially if we’re talking about things like legendaries. When there’s a new patch and you try to sell legendaries and you put them into the AH it won’t take more then 10 seconds until at least one person has undercuted. Most of the time it will be more then 1 person if you are on a high pop server.

What is the problem with this developement?

The first and most obvious thing is that no one needs this amount of gold. So there’s a lot of RMT going out from this players. I reported some in the past, which i was very sure they are doing it and they got banned. But some are really smart, transfering the gold in smaller sums trough multiple accounts and guild banks, so its hard to prove and catch them. Furthermore they control prices the way they want them and keep some products high even if they are not rare. Normal players that don’t wan’t to stay the whole day in front of the AH have low chances on making profitable sells, because they got undercut in seconds. People getting scamed with or without noticing by bait and dump tactics. I also think this whole situation is downgraded more and more. At the start of SL you were only undercutet in seconds with current stuff, now you also see people undercutting things like transmog items, which are no top seller in a few minutes.

What are my suggestions to improve the situation?

Like I said earlier block auction house usage for multiple accounts on the same bnet. Do people really have to take full guild banks + full personal bank with materials and stuff when they transfer a guild? I dont think that most normal guilds, that transfer have every slot filled with stuff. I know it may be difficult but to avoid baiting and also resetting the market you could make the AH work in a way like that: You can’t undercut or overbid by a certain amount. This could be meassured by average region prices of the last week or 2 weeks for example.

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I completely agree with you. I like playing the WOW economy too, casually but enough that I usually have a couple million gold on hand, and I earned enough in BFA to get the brutosaur. And cancel scanning is the bane of my existence. I hate it.

I know how it works. I use TSM myself, and I cancel scan 2-3 times per day because if I didn’t, I would hardly sell anything. But there’s no way I can compete with players who cancel scan all day long on second accounts. I play this game to have fun, and cancel scanning isn’t fun. I’d rather be playing around in Zereth Mortis, or running keys or arenas.

Cancel scanning combined with the awful ranking-up system of crafting legendary bases has made the legendary market fun for nobody except a small number of players who cancel scan all day. Because my guildies often struggle to buy a legendary blank that they need (we’ve seen them priced upwards of 200k when the crafting cost, once ranked up, is 30-40k), I have ranked up a number of legendary crafts myself so I can make their legendary blanks. But every one of them was a huge gold loss for me. It’s still worth it to me to help out the guild and make sure we’re all properly kitted out for raids and mythic+, but the system feels bad in every way.

Basically, you invest 300-500k to rank up the craft, and the 15 rank 1, 2, and 3 pieces you crafted to rank up all have to be sold at a loss because the supply exceeds the demand. So you get back maybe 20% of that investment back, and it takes months to sell them all.

Now you have to recover your investment by selling the rank 6 pieces (soon to be rank 7) at an obscene markup. But getting those sales requires cancel scanning all day. The cancel scanners will undercut you within minutes of posting. I cancel scan 2-3 times per day, so my offering will only sell if a buyer comes along within the 10 minutes or so out of every 24 hours that mine is at the top of the stack. I sell one once in a blue moon, but mostly I’ve given up and I just take the loss to help my guild. It feels bad all around.

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As today you see one of these impacts… you need tenebrous ribs for a quest… they normally cost around 2 gold . Now one is at 100 gold. Because someone bought all and sells them now for that anormal price. You have to buy them or farm them yourself and spent more time on that quest now. The person who bought them making 98g plus per rib a price increase of almost 5000%. I don’t know this increase over night doesn’t feel good…It’s bad for players with low amounts of gold.

You can’t buy things these days, when you need them. You have to buy them before or you will get punished that’s how it feels in the end.

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I understand your concern here, but a bit confused by your solution. I’ve noticed those “baiters” when placing items on the Auction House at low rates, and typically just buy them out then re-bid them all. I believe the Real Money Transaction players are definitely an issue in terms of WoW economy. I’m just uncertain of the solution to this issue, and your proposal left me with a lot of questions because most Auction House players stay on one server and don’t transfer guild/personal banks over and over.

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I don’t know a single Ah player only doing one realm.

Yes there are not many that use guild banks, but the ones that do it, have large amounts of gold and control markets by getting materials from server to server and destroying the economy of single servers by doing so.

I also proposed to limit AH using on 1 account, because i know many using at least 2 accounts and some even using 4,5,6 … This would help a lot because we allready have the ah throttle, when canceling to much. But they just avoid it with multiple accounts.

I also hope for other players that have ideas to help out here. I just think this is a situation which isn’t healthy in any way to the normal wow player that isn’t camping ah and just want’s to play and buy and sell stuff occasionally.

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Many of the points made I don’t agree with here. It’s important to remember that there are players who play WoW specifically for crafting and gold making. and many of the suggested changes would be affecting them negatively.

A lot of what you mentioned is always going to be a problem with free market economies, not limited to WoW specifically. There will always be players who control certain markets and try to manipulate prices. Competition is always going to be a thing. If you post something on the AH you are not guaranteed to sell it.

Flipping and market resets are just part of this system. To limit that and let the system generate what it thinks a market price should be would require completely redesigning how the AH works, because at that point it is no longer a free market.

To touch on the multiple account discussion, I have a second account I have lvl 60 characters on but also characters I post auctions on. I do this so I can play the game and craft while I do AH scans every so often. You’re not really going to see players undercutting on more than 2 characters at a given time; it’s mostly just to multitask. Same thing with guild banks. It’s much easier to organize hundreds of materials in guild banks and put your crafters in the guilds for easy material/stock access. I don’t see the issues with this personally. With regards to transferring you’ll see this a lot when someone wants to accumulate gold on other realms or just go to a realm with less competition and better profits. I also wouldn’t want to lose out on all of my crafting stock and materials if I wanted to change realms so I don’t see how limiting this would be a positive change.

Also with regards to the throttle it was only designed to reduce strain on the server and had to get almost immediately relaxed due to the large unpopularity behind it.

I agree however with the points made about legendaries. Definitely too much gold cost and investment required which has caused them to soar up in value to be profitable long term.

Part of this issue comes down to the lack of raw gold. If you aren’t boosting or doing AH pvp… how do you make gold to afford things like raid consumables? It seems like BfA and beyond has attempted to reduce gold inflation which means an overall lack of gold for the average player, causing them to need WoW tokens to afford stuff. I think this is likely the root of the issues that needs addressing.

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I think you misunderstood me here. I don’t want to forbid to use ah if you are online with multiple accounts. I don’t wan’t people to use the ah on multiple accounts at the same time. That means canceling on 1 or 2 accounts and auctioning on another in the meantime. I’m totally fine with people crafting on one account while auctioning on another… Crafting costs a lot of time these days so I totally understand this usage of more then 1 account.

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But… how would they track this? They can’t go by IP, because then you’re locking out family members who play together. I have multiple guildies who play with their signficant others, siblings, etc. who live in the same house.

And I’m almost positive they aren’t allowed to check if you’re running multiple instances of the game. I could be wrong though, this is one area of the law I’m not entirely sure about, as it doesn’t really come up lol. I could swear I remember reading that doing something like this violates privacy laws in multiple places.

I’m going to ignore my thoughts on TSM in this post, because for me, the add-on is borderline botting, and I’m still not sure why it’s allowed. I’ve listed something for less than intended before, and it was snatched up before I could even open the cancel tab. And it wasn’t a commonly searched item like trade goods. It was like a random battle pet.

That said, I’m well aware these will not be popular thoughts.


For me, personally, a big thing I think should be happen is limit how often you can cancel auctions of the same item. By this I mean, make it so you can’t cancel the same item on the auction house twice within a 10/15/30 minute period or so.

Cancelling it once is understandable, you got undercut while you’re checking the AH. But the only people I’ve ever known to constantly list and cancel the same item are people trying to manipulate the market.

Likewise, make it so you can’t list an item for less than a list price you already have on the auction house, to prevent people using that as a loophole to bypass this. (And I’m sure you learned in the Discord, a big way people manipulate prices is by artifically making something look like a bargain. Place multiple items on the auction house at different tiers of prices. No one looks at names of the sellers anymore because Blizzard made it hard to find, so it goes unnoticed now.)


It would also be handy to make it so items purchased on the auction house cannot be placed back on the auction house for an indeterminate amount of time. (12 hours? I dunno.) Flipping is fine, but I’m trying to imagine why 99% of the time you’d want to re-list something you just bought. The majority of the time? It’s from auction house manipulators.

And the rest of the time? I’d wager 90+% of those people won’t care if they have to wait like 12 hours to fix their mistake, or they can take to trade chat.


One other thing I think would be handy, would be delaying auctions being listed to other players by 30-60 seconds. That way if you accidentally make a mistake and list that 100,000 BoE for 1,000g. You can fix it without being swiped before you have a chance to cancel. Now, I would suggest if you cancel an item in this 30-60 second window, it doesn’t get the “can’t list an item you just cancelled for X minutes” I mentioned above.

You might say that’s counter productive, but it isn’t. The listed items were never seen by other players, so any attempt to manipulate the market by that posting wouldn’t have happened yet.


There’s a line between respecting how other people play the game, and believing a dozen people shouldn’t control the economy of a game played by millions.


I have a friend I met in 9.0 during the content drought (I leveled like 7 toons from 10-50 through BGs alone, and talked to people I regularly saw in Stormwind or the bgs. I made like a dozen or two dozen friends during that 2-3 month period) who pretty much runs the base legendary item business on Proudmoore now. That’s all he focuses on. He doesn’t overcharge and he doesn’t try to manipulate. And even then, he’s talked to me about how he gets verbally attacked and insulted by the people who manipulate the AH, because he “moved in on their business” to the point I remember one night talking to him for about 6 hours while he was ranting because they got multiple people to log in and were actively undercutting him every single time he’d post an item within seconds.

Again, there’s a line between respecting other people playing the game and understanding that what they’re doing has crossed into toxic behavior that makes the game unfun for other people.


As for the topic of legendary base items in general, if you look at the material cost - they actually cost more than the base item themselves. This is because the legendary crafters aren’t the AH manipulators. They’re crafters who just enjoy crafting.

But they’ve been undercut by the AH manipulators who believe they control the entire economy to the point they’re forced to farm the materials in order to avoid selling them at a loss.

A good example of toxic manipulation was what happened yesterday. There was a quest for Tenebrous Ribs in Zereth Mortis. 30 of them. It should have only cost a max of 100g. No. These manipulators knew ahead of time, bought all of the Ribs, and posted them at ridiculous prices.

These are images from the WoW Achievement Discord that they were documenting while the mass buyout was happening.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/260539358891868161/797128231684931594/unknown.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/260539358891868161/797128278145630258/unknown.png

Then this was the aftermath:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/260539358891868161/797158497468809256/unknown.png

The first one was unclickable because they didn’t actually exist anymore. You were forced to pay 57g per rib. On some servers they were up to 1000g per rib. The AH broke essentially because of these manipulators. I don’t remember which discord it was in, (I’m currently only in a few WoW discords), but someone was talking about how their friend made over a 1,000,000g in those few hours just exploiting this.

This is honestly disgusting and shouldn’t be allowed. A LOT of games have mass manipulation of the economy as a perma bannable offense. I’m genuinely not sure why Blizzard doesn’t.

For those who are doing the Zereth Mortis Quests and don’t want to be blindsided over the next few days, I made a thread in General Discussion letting everyone know what the next items are:

Don’t get caught by the manipulators. Share this with your friends. Share it with General Chat. Just help stop the exploiters.

If someone is willing to Share a Tazavesh lockout with me, (I’ve been searching), I intend to buy a thousand Melons and place them on the AH periodically throughout the day that quest comes up for the vendor price, as well as offering them for free in general chat.

4 Likes

You can’t controll it for multiple accounts, that’s not possible and not what I want. Most Ah players use the same bnet for their multiple accounts because they have ah mount or other advantages locked to their main account. For pet battles it works the way that only 1 account per battlenet can do pet battles. The pet battle ui is locked for any other account until you log out with the account that has pet battle currently active.

I totally agree with you that perma cancelling is a big problem and TSM its doing its part. As i said i use it too but i do it because it is legal and you have to use it to be able to compete in the ah. But the addon itself is really doing a lot of work for you especially when it comes to cancel and start multiple auctions.

TSM is amazing just for convenience. For example, I use its mailing operations to quickly mail materials to the correct crafting alt. Meat and fish to my cook, leather and cloth to my tailor/leatherworker, ores to my jewelcrafter. TSM saves me a lot of tedious sorting and clicking, and I would never want to give that up.

It’s the cancel scanning (also the low-price sniping, when it capitalizes on people’s honest mistakes in posting items) that bothers me. I realize it’s a hard problem to solve. I personally would not mind a straight-up limit on how many AH cancels I can make in a day. I don’t think cancel scanning all day on a second account is compelling gameplay for the typical player who likes to do some crafting and buying/selling, but it becomes mandatory when other people are doing it.

Perhaps instead of the most recently posted items being purchased first (at same price point), the item that’s been on the AH the longest gets purchased first. FIFO instead of LIFO. But then people will start undercutting by a copper again, so maybe a higher minimum undercut would help. It would have to be dependent on item price. An undercut of a silver might make sense for inexpensive items like shrouded cloth, but for a 90k legendary base, if I had to undercut by at last 500g, I would eventually reach a point where I don’t want to undercut anymore.

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You are allowed to have multiple WoW accounts under a Bnet and play them. Only recently was software used specifically for automating multiboxing prohibited.

Can you elaborate as to why you think this? I hear this stated a lot and I believe it to be a misconception. If you’re referring to items being instantly bought out, that is no longer a function of TSM with the new AH. TSM is a UI overhaul that streamlines a lot of the crafting and AH processes.

I have to disagree with this entirely. Undercutting is part of the competitive nature of the AH and the free market economy. Being more aggressive with this is trying to get sales - not market manipulation.

I think this is fine actually. Would prefer a window to cancel if something was priced or posted on accident. But items in this pending status shouldn’t show up in the AH until the timer has been met.

So it’s important to realize that many of the suggestions listed in this thread have this exact effect on people who play WoW specifically for crafting and goldmaking. Limiting auctions, system-determined prices, more throttling, etc would completely kill any drive to craft and sell stuff on the AH. It only benefits the buyer.

This also isn’t true except for the Rank 1 and 2 base items, sometimes Rank 3. This is because the crafting costs per item are lower and there is a large excess quantity of these on the market due to people leveling up the legendary rank recipes. Also legendary crafting is definitely the complete opposite of fun with the amount of suubcrafts needed…

I think it’s a bit extreme to label anyone in the goldmaking communities as exploiters, manipulators, or borderline botters. While I understand where that sentiment comes from, this is largely due to a very VERY select few. There are great communities for goldmaking dedicated to helping players get started, and sharing experiences and it feels very disingenuous to have them given a label like that.

All of this said though, I can agree with the points that the undercut wars are at an all time high. As I previously mentioned this is likely due to AH PvP being the only consistent and accessible goldmaking opportunity in the game right now. The solution needs to be something that doesn’t kill goldmaking as a hobby in the game. While it may not be admitted, I think that those who do participate in the continuous cancel scanning would like something to change because that aspect is not fun.

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It has functions that people can’t manually do in even half the time it does. TSM in itself isn’t a problem, it’s some of the features it supports.

Read my post. My friend was in Stormwind for SIX HOURS and being undercut within seconds of his stuff being put on.

For six. hours. straight. And it only stopped because he got sick of it and logged out.

That is manipulation and borderline game disruption.

You must not be on a big server, because it’s true all the way to rank 6 on Proudmoore for most pieces.

And I only know this because I was researching re-crafting legendaries that need to be recrafted in 9.2 like the covenant ones, and to replace my paladin’s covenant legendary, it would quite literally require 150k more to buy the mats for a rank 6, than just buy the armor piece.

At this point, there’s a very good chance I will be using rank 1 legendaries on every spec I have to recraft, and I will not touch rank 7s. I may not even use a legendary at all other than the covenant one, because it might be a DPS loss to use a 190 legendary instead of a 250+ item with no effect.

They NEVER should have made multiple ranks of the base item. What should have happened is like Legion - allow us to get items to upgrade already existing legendaries. In this case, soul ash and such. We shouldn’t have to supply another base item.

That quote in particular was about people using prior knowledge from the PTR to take advantage of people who don’t go on the PTR and artifically increase the price of a required item the day before it’s needed.

This is extremely close to the real life equivalent of insider trading. The only difference is the PTR is public. But there are people who choose to avoid spoilers. And exploiting those people for profit of knowledge you have and they don’t is pretty much insider trading.

Hence, they are exploiters and manipulators.

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