I am expressing uncertainty about events. Helya thought it was wrong to usurp the afterlives of the Vrykul, so Odyn enthralled her, and did as he pleased anyway. Odyn has a history of compelling people to do his bidding against their will. So, I express uncertainty. Yes.
You are laying out your feelings about the present and future as if that has any weight beyond wild speculation.
Me: “That’s uncertain given the past we know.”
You: “My feelings are that Sylvanas’s end game is very clear! Even if Blizzard doesn’t want it overtly stated!”
I express doubt about Odyn’s servant’s mental independence based on actual events.
You lay out an invented motivation, then you state that Blizzard seems to “not want” a character to state it. Not only are you imagining Sylvanas’s motivations, but Blizzard’s too. There is the difference.
I have been accused of alot of untrue things on this forum. In this thread alone. It makes me laugh. It shows how paralyzed with self-serving Dogma the Story Forum echo chamber can be.
One person disagrees with the hive mind - he is a troll or bait poster.
Somehow people agree with him - it must be him spamming on alts.
He continues to disagree and holds his opinion. Troll.
It speaks to the accusers more than the accused, when I know I have been consistent on these forums. But, if its good for a laugh, some good came of it.
Not at all. The game does not in any way frame current Valkyr in the way you insinuate.
Also not at all. All motivations I listed are plainly stated in game or novels. My conjecture was purely in listing them together to speculate over her end goal.
Odyn has forced his will on others and made them commit actions they were against. Doubt can be raised about the free will of his current servants.
Odyn forced Helya against her will to become a Valkyr and do his bidding. He forced the Vrykul of old to become his servants in their after lives against their desire. Now their children worship him.
Those are events in WoW lore. To which you reply.
It certainly does.
As another source describes (that gamepedia site).
“The vrykul objected, and Odyn’s adopted daughter, the titan-forged Helya, tried to talk him out of it. Instead, Odyn transformed Helya into the first Val’kyr and ordered her to do the job for him.”
Just another description of events (not from me) that shows how he deals with disagreement - he warps them into a form that will serve him.
The framing of the current Val’kyr has people vying to undergo willing transformation. Only Helya and the distant past Val’kyr have mind control framing.
Yes. These enter into it willingly because Odyn stole their afterlives, and the future of their people long, ago.
But what they become after the transition is what I am speaking of. That remains Odyn’s dominion.
You bring up a point about Vrykul making a choice before they are altered into Valkyr. Once altered, do they maintain free will from Odyn? That is unknown and I am skeptical given his history.
Sira and Delaryn willingly transitioned into Undead. Yet there are many posters suggesting the initial choice to return might have been free will, but Mind Control must be involved after the willing transition.
Just as you say about Vrykul who willingly chose to become a Valkyr. What happens after the willing transition is unclear.
History shows what Odyn does to those who disagree. Ignoring it is simply a matter of taste.
Given the current framing, I don’t see a reason to think they’re mind controlled. Because before it was made clear nobody wanted to and now people are jumping at the chance.
I’m not one of those people, so ok?
Doesn’t seem that unclear.
Except we’re not shown these current ones disagreeing in life. We’re shown their eager willingness to try and obtain the supposed honor.
In the past, he met disagreement with forcibly transforming Helya into a Valkyr, stealing the afterlives of the Vrykul, and propagating a religion devoted to him among their descendants.
He cut off disagreement long ago and had the children raised to agree as a testament of faith
The current framing is: he long ago made disagreement tantamount to blasphemy.
Sure. I think Odyn’s social grooming of the Vrykul is ethically questionable. But that it defeats the need for mind control as he used with Helya. Hence why the current framing of the Val’kyr doesn’t seem to be they are being mind controlled.
Helya was able to have her disagreements roused by Loken.
Sylvanas potentially could have converted Eyir. His control is not absolute in life or afterwards. It can be broken. This shows that he has control over them after their transformation, and that control can be removed.
Ok, but this discussion is about whether the current Val’kyr are framed as being mind controlled. And the current framing has Vrykul willing seeking out the transformation.
With Helya she explicitly didn’t want to do it in the first place and still didn’t want to do it while under his control. There’s no evidence Odyn’s current Val’kyr have any such reservations or disagreements.
I am stating that changing a process of mental subjugation from forcing it on the first person who disagrees, into grooming generations to willingly undergo that same process - does not change the out come.
They are two roads to the same place. One road is prettier.
The level of mental independence once they become Valkyr, is what I was pointing out. You can say Odyn wouldn’t require it, but he has in the past. He is willing and capable of doing it.
Once Arthas was gone, the 9 Valkyr needed to submit themselves to a vessel they deemed worthy. They chose Sylvanas, and they obey her.
Eyir could be made to submit to Sylvanas with Helya’s help.
The Valkyr and their various incarnations have a history of subjugation from the very first ever created, to this day. They are essentially turned into a subject of a master, and follow who ever can wrest control of them as a pawn.
And Spirit Healers (from Gamepedia):
“Spirit healers are Val’kyr who, once released from the influence of Odyn, did not side with Helya and chose to dwell alone in the Shadowlands, where they occasionally assist worthy souls back to the realms of the living.”
I see that as enough to question the freedom Odyn’s Valkyr have. Seeing as he made the first against her will, and is selfishly grooming generations to serve him.
The problem is that he has no reason to do it now. Before he did, nobody wanted to do it. Now Vrykul really, really want to do it.
Helya and even the nine under the Lich King make it clear, ‘we don’t want to be in this situation.’ Odyn’s Val’kyr, including Eyir, make it clear ‘we like this Odyn guy’.
You keep referencing two different situations and pretending they all relate to the same framing. They are distinct things. Much like how you can have a mind controlled undead and a free willed undead, being undead doesn’t necessitate mind control. Being a Val’kyr doesn’t necessitate mind control.
I certainly never said “necessitate.” I said it casts doubt on their free will.
I doubt their independence and free will because of the history of the Valkyr and the person responsible for making them. That is completely relevant, and in the current framing.
Your argument seems to be that because Odyn had a history of enslavement, mind control, and lies that has worked for generations, that he wouldn’t need it anymore? If anything it seems he became more efficient at the process.
How likely do you think mind control is, if you had to give it a percentage?
Except you’re clearly say ‘history of’, making it prior framing, given it references a period over 10,000 years in the past. Not current framing. It also had prior framing of nobody wanting to do it, and the current framing is that people do want to do it. The current framing is Eyir and her ilk singing Odyn’s praises.
It would be like claiming the current Night Elves are framed as loving Arcane because they did in their ancient Empire.
My argument is that there are two different situations.
Previously Odyn clearly needed mind control (nobody was willing), so he used it.
Currently Odyn clearly doesn’t need mind control (people are willing), so he probably isn’t using it.
The history is not just one event in the past. Or one time period. It extends through Legion - where we meet Helya and Eyir. It wasn’t that far back that Sylvanas tried to get Eyir to submit with Helya’s help.
Helya saw the Spirit Healers freed from Odyn’s influence in the past. We do not know the deal between Helya and Sylvanas.
No.
It would be like claiming “Night Elves are framed as loving Arcane in the past, and still have some who do” (which they do)
But we are not talking about a race with many individuals that evolved over time - we are talking about one Titan Keeper who has not changed much over time. And is making the same creations.
Probably is a stretch. I have my doubts. Which are in the current framing.
Current framing does not mean “complete removal of all historical context”. The context of Odyn and the Valkyr from the beginning to the present should be taken into account if one considers the current free will of a valkyr.
If I was RPing, or really in that world having to deal with it, I’d be 99% sure. Especially after what Eyir says to Voljin and his friends.
As a player and fan: 49%. It is more likely he is not using Mind Control on a grand, industrial scale - but I think he is using some mind control on a case by case basis. If he feels the need.
He has shown no compunction about using it before.
As a character and as a fan, anyway you slice it, I have my doubts. I dont mean to say they are all definitely mind controlled.
I said I doubt they have independent free will. I am not certain of it.