So, I had written in another thread about, I think, Van Cleef and the Defias and a bunch of other stuff. One thing I commented on was that trying to find out some of this information was…tricky.
I figured I could ask the people here, who have a firmer grasp on the lore than I do (and probably access to books and such where this information is stored).
There were a few questions I had, based on things that I thought I read somewhere, but now can’t find for the life of me. And by “life of me”, I mean “a quick Google search”, which, really, is a sad testimony to what I do with my time. I gotta…I gotta get some goals, or something.
Ahem. Anyway, here are the questions.
Are…were half of the Stonemason’s Guild and half of the Council of Nobles ensorcelled by Lady Prestor to essentially keep them from reaching an agreement? I am fairly certain that one is “yes”, but I’d like to make sure.
The Stonemason’s wanted a hefty sum, and the Council of Nobles didn’t want to give them what they were asking. I could swear I read that King Varian Wrynn offered to pay the difference from his own fortune, but that was rebuffed. That doesn’t sound like something I would make up, but I can’t find that information again, for the life of me.
This is the big one. From my understanding, Lady Prestor approached Edwin Van Cleef to make the deal, without the knowledge of the Council of Nobles…and she led him to believe that his guild would be paid handsomely for this. From what it sounds like? She just led him to believe this, and was deliberately vague because, y’know, Onyxia.
This third one seems to be the most confusing. I have alternately read things ranging from “they were directly contracted by Stormwind” to “this was just Lady Prestor”. One thing says “the nobles refused to pay because of debt” and another thing says “the nobles had no knowledge that this deal had been made, and wouldn’t have made it because they knew full well they didn’t have the money for it.”
Ultimately, I know it boils down to “Lady Prestor hustled all of Stormwind like a straight up G, fracturing the kingdom in a way that they’re still recovering from, years after her death”. Taking advantage of corrupt nobles and violent tradesman with such finesse that the Old Gods she serves probably still chuckle at playing humanity like a fiddle.
But I’m still scratching my head a bit at the specifics of it. And I think that might be because the lore has changed in a place that’s not in the game that I don’t have access to.
I would appreciate any help you could give with this.
From my understanding, the Stonemasons worked to rebuild Stormwind of pretty much their own accord. The nobles believed it was a good faith gesture that didn’t need to be repaid (this is most likely the work of Katrana). So they didn’t pay them. Stonemasons got angry, became Defias, and then yes, Katrana ensorcelled pretty much half of each side (the part about it being roughly half from each side was speculation from I believe Bolvar Fordragon, but still most likely true) and basically told them to dig in their heels and not make a deal. Which just created more tensions. The part about Varian Wrynn paying it from his own fortune I don’t know about, but I think I might remember hearing something like that. But it might just be a false memory because you brought it up.
I think the story could use a few rewrites. Stormwind, the kingdom itself, was steamrolled by the Old Horde. I imagine much of the infrastructure and agriculture was destroyed by the nomadic invasive army, so I don’t know how much ‘gold’ the Stonemasons were expecting. Perhaps Vancleef and his lieutenants should have been offered a seat at the table, a house of their own, and then being disregarded would have made for a better bitter rivalry. But "they didn’t pay us for the work " seems kind of dumb both from a story telling angle, and in universe. It’s like, “Hey we shouldn’t give the people we need to rebuild the city supplies… they’ll get their own lol!”
That sounds plausible, too. That dragon was just on another level.
…it does kind of make everyone look stupid, yeah. But I still like it because of the finesse Onyxia exercised in pulling it off. Literally the entire human starting quest experience is based, one way or another, around what she did.
“Game recognize game”, as they say.
Game. Recognize. Game.
That is, as far as I understand? She wasn’t just connected to the event. She orchestrated it.
I assume it is more like what Deathwing did in Day of the Dragon, Onyxia would managed to subtly influence people(with magic and words) rather then outright enscrolling people.
This was it, Varian planned on paying them from his own funds but by the time he tried the Stonemason decided to changed something exorbitant which he could not pay.
I have never hear this lore and I honestly dont think it was ever a part of the lore.
I will add this, Onyxia did sabotage the workmanship of the Stonemasons thus making the Nobles displeased with it and want to withhold payment. The reason I add this particular note is because I want to point out both sides, while having a degree of greed cloud their judgement, were ultimately not the main cause of the problem and we should probably blame the freaking Dragon manipulating both sides.
There was probably at least some sorcerous manipulation going on, in the manner that Deathwing/Daval Prestor had the court of Lordaeron magically influenced to like him a whole lot and not ask too many questions about his personal background, which wore off shortly after his disappearance. That sort of enchantment was one of the red flags that had the Kirin Tor’s agents investigating his backstory, but with Dalaran removed from the political scene by their own rebuilding efforts up until the war in Northrend, such manipulation could have gone more or less unnoticed. In Vanilla, Bolvar at the very least was magically controlled by way of the Drakefire Amulet, but the comics retconning Varian’s “return” into her being exposed undid that bit of lore, instead making him conscious of her questionable loyalty (though not yet her true identity) but simply unable to move against her while her Varian “copy” was in charge and trusting in her counsel.
It’s also possible that the Stormwind nobility was especially young and impressionable at that time. A lot of the elder members were wiped out shortly before the First War, at the party in Karazhan during the confrontation between Aewgynn and Medivh, and more were probably lost defending their lands against the orcs and during evacuation/razing of Stormwind. A lot of the nobility going into post-war reconstruction may have been younger, more distant relatives who’d never been expected to inherit, resulting in them being generally underversed in matters of statecraft as well as more gullible and rashly emotional than their experienced predecessors would have been.
Which could also potentially explain why Varian married Tiffin - daughter of a well-to-do, yet common-born family from Westfall that joined the gentry as part of that marriage arrangement - rather than being politically compelled to marry the scion of a bigger, more powerful and established noble house. After events immediately preceding and during the wars, it’s possible none of the once-great noble families held as much power as they used to, with so much of their leadership dead and many of their familial lands either in ruins or still overrun by various hostile intruders. So the marriage could have been brokered as part of an effort to increase the ranks of the House of Nobles by adding new blood to replace those families that didn’t survive or held claim to lands no longer under Stormwind control.
It’s that last part, really. One of the things that prompted this question was an out-of-character chat with someone about some of the root causes of these things. People say “nobles this” and “stonemason’s that”, but really people keep downplaying that this is a perfect example of the Old Gods doing what they actually are trying to do: Sow discord among people so that they’re unprepared for actual threats.
As Vanaelia would say, “Even I’ll admit to being impressed at how seamlessly this executed. They still remember that, by the way, darlings. They have a party every year and laugh at you. The cake is horrid.”
I’ll be honest? I think what might be a bit confusing to me is when they make those retcons. It give a bit of whiplash. Because I remember exactly what you’re talking about both from the game’s release, and from the change with Varian’s new thing.
I do want to say I appreciate all the answers. It is one of those maddening feelings in the world to think “…I know I saw this, but I can’t remember where, so I can’t confirm if I really saw it”.
More or less yes. Onyxia had her hands in both their pockets. Manipulating the nobles to start wars and expansions Stormwind could not pay for (See https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Shaw%27s_Report). Thus not being able to give fair payment to the stonemasons. She was manipulating the Stonemasons to demand additional payment for completing their contract way ahead of time. The latter being perfectly reasonable though. It didn’t help that her brother had the Dark Horde, led by Rend Blackhand to attack Redridge mountains. Stretching Stormwinds military thin.
It was Tiffin who wanted to pay the difference out of her familys own pockets.
The stonemasons were hired to rebuild stormwind after the positive reviews they got for building Nethergarde Keep.
She was also constantly trying to drive wedges between Stormwind and their allies, counseling against lending or accepting aid from the dwarves in particular, which would further tax the armies and resources all parties.
Moreover given the timing, it’s pretty likely that she was at least involved in making sure that the original Forsaken overtures for peace with the Alliance were rebuffed and their messengers eliminated, as she didn’t want Stormwind gaining any more allies in the midst of her attempts to weaken and alienate the ones it already had.