What do you think that will accomplish when people can buy rating as easily as ilvl? It’s a fake gate that does nothing to actually screen people who aren’t proficient enough to be there.
The last time they tried something performance related, that people couldn’t be carried through, the forums were flooded with tears. It was mind boggling how many people couldn’t do silver proving grounds, and these people were outraged that they couldn’t queue into heroics and force people to carry them.
Does this system inherently circumvent the keystone system?
Or is someone’s keystone put up on the alter?
Cata heroics? When information about the game was limited and mostly based on vibes? People are much better at the game now and those seeking challenge will go where it can be found.
This is true but I have already laid out my idea for a queue. It would be like a delve tier system where they only way to queue for a 10 would be to have timed and completed a 9. Same for all tiers/levels. Alternatively, it could infer something from fellowship to improve queue times. Fellowship instead groups you with people of similar rating and you vote on 3 maps. I think this wouldn’t work for wow because of the 8 dungeon pool compared to fellowships 4 adventures + 1 dungeon per rating bracket (the level of difficulties of these vary as well so one queue you might see Dungeon A +4 Dungeon B +6 Dungeon C +8, then next queue Dungeon B +4, Dungeon C +6, Duncan B +8)
But I actually don’t think there will be much problem here for the 1-10 field. Most people already only do the bare minimum with data showing most target 10s. Everything after with my delve-type system would always group you with people of similar experience because of the pre-requisite for applying being that you’ve completed the difficulty just below that. This is sort of even how infinite difficulty in Diablo works where you have to progress so far to get to the next level of difficulty and it was this system that inspired m+ to some degree.
This already exists in game and past the 3k awards it’s exceptionally rare. I have maybe played with 2 boosted players in my entire time playing m+ in high keys. And both were in season 1. I have not played with any since afaik.
My system would not require a key stone. This is one way they can move away from depletion as core factor of why people are turned off to the game mode. Or at least why they are disatisfied so strongly with failure.
This is not why Cataclysm Heroics were nerfed.
The reasons Cataclysm Heroics were changed were multiple. First, the nature of classes at the time weren’t very compatible with the encounter design. It took until the first patch inside Cataclysm for melee and tanks to get reliable interrupts, and that was because Cataclysm Heroics (and raids) were designed to require interrupt rotations. I was there, I remember the conversations we personally had on these forums with GC to convince the devs of realities such as this, which resulted in, e.g. Rebuke being changed from a Ret talent to being an interrupt available to all Paladins.
In addition, Heroics in Cata were an entry point into the entire expansion. You geared through 5-man Heroics for drops and Justice/Valor to get into Raids, and to get into PvP. A blocking point at Heroics essentially blocked people off from the entire expansion. While they wanted 5-man hard content to be a viable endgame for people, the expansion wasn’t designed to accommodate that, and so they changed that up. Mythic+ is in a very different situation because it IS an actual end-point, and is already set up to be on a level on par with Raids and Rated PvP.
You’re half-correct on the fact that this later evolved into Mythic+, but the actual trajectory here is that they went from Cataclysm Heroics, to Challenge modes as a concept for Pandaria and Draenor, and then went to Mythic+ in Legion because they felt that limiting players to a fixed ilvl felt worse than having a scaling system. The important part though is that all of these existed after any entry-point content (and gearing) for the expansions involved.
People have tried to cite Cataclysm Heroics every time queue difficulty comes up, and ignore the actual circumstances behind Cataclysm Heroics. I suspect that’s because they weren’t actually there, or weren’t actually involved in any of these conversations.
So that’s your core motivation lol, to remove depletion.
You don’t even care about challenge, just numbers going up.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/627690/Idle_Champions_of_the_Forgotten_Realms/
Here, you get gold, and items, just for leaving your computer on.
Im actually really pleasantly surprised at the past few responses. Folks understand a queued system would work and all it would take is some kind of ranking / rating / qualification system to ensure difficulties are matched to skillsets. Seems obvious but in the past thered just be a bunch of people ranting about how itwould water down the game.
If you play ranked Starcraft, Blizzard doesnt just tgrow you into a diamond league game, you work your way up the ladder. Same concept here.
Dude going down in “rank” can exist outside a depletion system…
PvP matchmaking is a very different system than what this would be.
MMO/ELO work because a player (or team) wins every time. That isn’t the same as what this would be.
I mean you can check my achievement dates if you want, I was there.
I was there for the non-stop crying coming off face rolling 5 mans in Wrath, Ghostcrawler telling players “dungeons are hard” and the forums crying until they were gutted.
They weren’t even as hard as TBC heroics, which were also the entry level/main content following the level cap.
Queue content in WoW carries a large expectation that the players will win, and the crying is massive if that doesn’t happen.
And paladins didn’t even have rebuke until Cata at all lol.
And the more posts I read about it really seems like players just want key depletion killed, and this is just another way (in their mind) around it.
It can but not in a satisfactory manner.
Ok, this kinda tells me that just like I said, you weren’t particularly involved in the discussions we the players were having directly with Blizzard devs, including Ghostcrawler. After the nerfs were announced, they made a separate forum post (not GC’s “Dungeons are hard” blog post which came much earlier) outlining what I said. I have a vague memory of linking the Bluetracker back in 2021 or something but these forums’ search feature is terrible.
WoW forums were kinda wild in that era. You could go from forum post to announced patch change within hours. The one that most stands out was in Wrath, when during the Ulduar PTR, we were in the Tank forums talking about issues with Paladins and taunts, GC came in to ask why Righteous Defense wasn’t good enough, a few dozen of us pointed out issues with taunt swaps like on 4H, and within hours GC announced that the next PTR build would have a new spell called Hand of Reckoning, a true taunt. The closest you get to something like that now is on some Discord server.
Eh, that’s a weird opinion to have, but it’s also irrelevant because BC wasn’t designed to work the same way, especially on release. Those BC dungeons were a specific gateway TO the raid content (especially through attunements), and gearing worked in a very different way that didn’t funnel purely through Heroics. You even had specs that didn’t get much useful from most Heroic dungeons, because their scaling was weird and a random blue from a quest in Nagrand could be BiS, or Frozen Shadoweave, or whatever.
Yes. Rebuke was a Ret Paladin talent going into the expansion. As a response to the issues with Heroic dungeons and raids, Blizzard made the decision to ensure all melee classes had one reliable, true interrupt (Prot Paladins had AS, but it wasn’t the same thing). That’s why in the patch which I believe was 4.0.6, Rebuke was changed to be a skill available to ALL Paladins.
The people you find in LFG can also buy rating.
The forums are always flooded with tears.
5 mans in wrath were harder than M0/+2 keys are right now. People would wipe all day in Halls/Pit Of Saron.
Yeah this is how I imagine it would work too. You’d have to time each dungeon (or at least have rating equivalent to that) to move up to the next level.
I know this is hard to imagine, but try. Not everyone is fills their groups based solely on rating. That’s a lazy approach that often results in poor outcomes. Making it the default way to select groups just makes things worse.
Okay, someone who has pugged 3500 as a healer doesn’t care about challenge…lol?
I have no dog in this fight as far as whether a qued M+ system should be implemented, but someone like this who has pushed far past what most do in an incredibly tough environment like pugs is absolutely someone who Blizz should be paying attention to, not just those cocooned in their little premade groups who rarely see the light of day or step foot in the pug scene.
Yes, they repeatedly complain about content being too hard. Which is antithetical to getting this high in the first place.
They are at the level of begging Blizzard for nerfs so they can go +1 with same inputs.
Yeah it would be but its not that hard to come up with a system thave works for PvE. Some examples:
There are tons of ways to do it.
This is literally just complaining to complain.
No. it’s explaining reality. Let’s say you auto queue into a +10, the tank runs it down and now you can’t do a +9 anymore.
What if you get another tank that suicides? Now you’re doing a +8.
Can’t even get back to a +10 lol.
Joining groups is different because you can be capable of a +10 but just have two bad groups.
At least with a queue, you will get a chance to run that 8. Currently if you have a +9 key nobody is ever joining that key.
Did you even read my post about how they’d have to change a rating system to make this work? You make it like a rep or XP bar. One bad run doesn’t instantly drop you down a level, but a few would…
So many people with crab mentality here. “If I can’t, no one can”.