As a casual 1800-2100 Andy - PvP has never felt so egregious

Hi,

I know the topics been beaten to death but I’m compelled to add my voice to this piranha tank in the ongoing effort to see PvP in it’s best state possible. I don’t come here speaking as a veteran multi glad, but as a long time universal WoW player that gets that specific itch scratched by the gameplay WoW PvP offers, and I’m not great at writing bulk points in a way that’s so digestible so please consider those factors when you read my post.

PvP at it’s best is still fun though at its worst, and far too consistently, is downright frustrating. The amount of micromanagement spread across CC, micro CC, mitigations, absorbs, buffs, movement abilities (more on this later) and CD’s is exhausting. It’s to the point that everyones favorite load screen tip “Struggling with a tough foe? Remember, just keep your Health above 0 while lowering your enemy’s Health to 0. Works every time!” is something I have to chuckle at given how disingenuous it is to what WoW is actually like to play outside of questing where no one struggles with a tough foe.

To start, I see a lot of discussion and outrage on age old incidents, I’ll use melee chasing around pillars and dying as an example. This behavior of lining healers has grown more consistent in the rated space with the addition of Solo and Blitz, which is natural given the pug nature of these modes which are objectively more popular than party lobbies, though the addition of 2-4 gap closers, openers and general movement abilities that have been homogenized into nearly every spec in the game is, in my opinion, the catalyst of the issue. If you give players more tools to screw up, they are going to do so more often. Newer players and PvE enjoyers are going to see that charge is off cool down and utilize it unaware that playing their character in a way that comes natural to them is active sabotage, yet here they are with 2-4 gap closers to create the lose condition. In the current meta it feels 9/10 safer to be kiting rather than chasing, as kiting now still offers 100% damage uptime for a stark majority of specs.

What’s unforgivable in my book is how some specs seem to get a pass where as others can remain in mediocrity. Why are mages (a class I have played extensively) with their 2 blinks, displace, alter and gigashields currently cosplaying as warlocks being the 5th pillar in the middle of an arena map unbothered?
Why are MM hunters deleting people for 5mil odd aimed shots?
Why is BM seeing so much success having S macro’d into and bound to their PvE rotation, ignoring all CC that isnt stun on cooldown on the kill target?
Why is every shaman spec mid or downright trash - again? (I understand resto is doing okay but in the face of disc I honestly cant compare it).
Why have casters and ranged DPS been divided by one feeling like you’re a comp stomp NPC/target dummy/active thrower and the other being spoiled for win conditions? At least give the benefits of instants to classes that don’t have an obnoxious level of mobility.
Why is night elves?

I don’t see how any of the above is considered healthy in the PvP space and the currents state of it feels so obvious that I can only think of it as an active ignorance towards PvP as well as some of WoW’s most dedicated playerbase.

The change on CC not breaking immediately honestly needs to be reverted. It was a lazy solution to a lazy design choice of baking cleave into everyones ST rotation. Doesn’t the over saturation of movement and gap closing/opening abilities for the purpose of advantageous positioning entirely contradict this weird, acute safety net change to CC? Why does CC need protection when we have an obnoxious amount of freedom of movement to ensure cleave wouldn’t hit a CC target anyway?

Immortal healer arc is boring. I understand it would be miserable to die more often but with the strength a healer brings to a situation, it’s fair that an unpeeled/unsupported healer should die under the circumstance of being trained by 3-4 dps regardless of spec. There’s no black or white on this imo, dying is a part of PvP and it’s silly that any one role or spec is liberated from this regardless of how well played it is.

It feels harder than ever to predict incoming damage without the use of addons or weakauras and this doesn’t lie directly in audio/visual cues of a spec’s offensive cooldowns. There’s way too much reliance on ritalin fueled hyperfixation in lower rating brackets on awareness of you healers position, their CD’s, are they currently CC’d etc. Paired with the internal management of your own defensives, positioning and cooldowns AS WELL as the enemies - it cocktails into a scenario where too often in a single match does the next global make or break the round despite best intentions. It’s very punishing and a little exhaustive knowing you’ve lost a round because that next global responded to one thing while several other critical events were also happening at the same time. I understand gross amounts of counterplay awareness and skill is important for high end rated PvP but it isn’t fun as a mandatory introduction to the in the lower, mid and casual environments that make up a large bulk of PvP. The ridiculous MMR inflation really nails this one home.

TLDR, It’s my own spin on the same echo chamber. PvP gameplay bloated, balancing bad, PvP Inaccessible for new players, low effort specs seeing the most success is stupid, 2 pvp devs scrreeeEEEEE.

I just really like PvP and want to see it improve in all areas and not just micro tuning for the top 1% of players. I understand my accounts on everything may deviate from your own and am open to your thoughts. Cheers.

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"Rock is fine, nerf Scissors

~ Paper"

For top competing players MM is ranked 8th for ranged specs. And yes, casual players will struggle with MM, but for the top players it does not appear to be an issue.

  1. Frost
  2. Elemental
  3. Shadow Priest
  4. Affliction
  5. Balance
  6. Beast Master
  7. Arcane
  8. Marksmanship

So, yeah, in Random PvP against unorganized newbies, MM is a terror. In top tier competitive PvP it falls off a lot and is easily countered. I won’t tell you how, I’ll let you figure that out on your own.

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The ol’ “my broken spec isn’t broken, just get gud” post.

Both BM and MM are in the top 3 of ranged players represented at 2.1 and 2.4.

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Yeah, top tier competitive PvP they don’t worry about too much so not sure why that’s being brought up in a casual thread. :woman_shrugging:

…and almost no one cares how it performs in “competitive PvP”.

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Balancing is done around the ladders, not tournament players.

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^ This 100%

And this 100%

The rest of you that commented on balancing a specific spec are missing the point entirely. I doubt you even read the tldr.

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CC, does it need protection? No, not really, but for the caster of the CC it is quality of life to have it sometimes functioning. Unstable Affliction didn’t need dispel backlash more powerful than the base spell, but it got it.

Is the game too complex? That’s very much an opinion, if you ask ten people, they’ll tell you ten different things on that one. It is complex, I don’t feel it needs to be more complex than an already is now.

To Zug or not to Zug, the Melee vs Ranged debate, including the homogenization of movement tools…

I don’t know if there is answer to if it is better to be melee or ranged. Many melee have some tools the other melee don’t, and as you know, there are some low mobility melee(Ret and Enhancement). As you mentioned, there are positioning requirements of certain specs that others don’t need to concern themselves with as much, because some specs have instant mobility or close to it and others are very slow to retreat, if they can at all.
So it’s not completely homogenized, and that’s kind of why the slow specs suffer.

Spec tuning in pvp…
The specs that are overturned for whatever blizzard uses as their metric of proficiency can be looked at soon, when maximum gear is obtained and we see what specs achieved what in rated content and the testing that should have been done on the PTR is actually done live. I do not doubt that there are outliers, more outliers may even surface when specs with good tier set have it more commonly.

The above mentioned concerns should have already been delt with…
Maybe, as far as tuning goes, it’s a constant. Tuning will keep happening. It may not be the tuning that you want, but things will change.

Immortal healer arc is boring.
I do know that there is no immortal healers, just some fairly durable healers played well.
Those that have a very hard time with healers might be playing a spec with no silence, a melee range interrupt, no dispell, limited pvp effective CC, less than average mobility, and no MS effect… If that sounds familiar, it’s because it’s Retribution. Play a better spec if you want to be effective against healers, or pray they make Retribution better, or both.

Casual pvp and add on reliance…

It is true that the base UI is not giving you enough information, a really good player can get a lot done with limited add-ons, but there absolutely is no casual pvp. That is to say, there is nowhere in instance pvp for someone that isn’t very knowledgeable to enjoy themselves. The game is complex.

OP"I just really like PvP and want to see it improve in all areas and not just micro tuning for the top 1% of players. I understand my accounts on everything may deviate from your own and am open to your thoughts. Cheers."

You one 100% are supposed to have your own opinion, and I’m glad you do. If I wasn’t clinically addicted to wow before I started pvping, I may have quit in a week. When we see a spec that appears to have all the cool tools and all the favorable tuning, I recommend everyone play it. Find out if it’s as easy as you thought, and if it is enjoy it for the a month or so it might last. I wish I could go back in time and take my own advice and Convoke the Spirits most of the enemy team to the grave every minute like in shadowlands. Usually tuning concerns don’t last a whole expansion though.

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When what the best players on earth can or cant accomplish with specs given current tuning is the topic at hand, your list appears spot on accurate, and I do not read it as a dig at a players skill level.

For us normies that don’t do tournaments, if a spec appears simple to use and powerful(a lot of opinions of specs are from players that don’t play them), it is easy to say something unfair has happened and recommend changes. It’s much harder to rely on information from the best players who know what is possible from the specs, as people base their opinions off of their own experiences. It can be as simple as getting crushed in a few seconds by a Fury warrior several times over a week and now you know Fury needs nerfs… You might not actually know what needs to change, but you feel strongly that your opinion is the only thing that makes sense. I know I’ve been guilty of this in the past.

But as you alluded to, Supatease outlined some of the counterplay that can shut down an MM hunter and good players do know how to use a specs limitations against them. Skill capped has a whole series of videos to show someone the most efficient counters for every spec. It is pay walled information but similar information could be free on youtube. The game is so complicated that it really is a knowledge is power situation.

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There fixed it for ya, but well written and a nice change of pace with good advice on how to make pvp better. CC def needs attention and the whole class balancing is soooo bad. I believe all the bad changes is on purpose. I also believe blizz is using bots in pvp to reduce ques. Blizz needs to hire some actual devs that can understand balance and do better. Id fire them all. Wpvp is just abysmal, rated anything sucks.

But hey, they cater to the pve crowd and they get what they want on the drop of a dime!

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I always liked casual bgs. Never really worrying about some rating. Unfortunately the ratings found me and bgs stopped being fun.

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Hahaha okay I can meet in the middle with priests, they are what come to mind and I think I just caught some other healers in the crosshair.

Definitely need to double down on balance on not just classes but also the battlegrounds and systems that we play in.

Blitz is a solid example of PvP content being kept up to date with the zooming zoomer class philosophy we have today, I’d like to see it come to epics and potentially even 10-15 man randoms. Not explicitly faster mounts and restricted spin windows on flags but something to really put the zerg mindset away (as well as make it less grief for a solo melee!)

Why in god’s name is class balance still be centered around ladder competitors and not how classes perform against each other in simulated environments of maximum efficiency.

On one hand you’re dealing with the wrong way to balance classes and on the other hand you’re balancing your game’s classes. This doesn’t need to be based on user input and won’t promote activity. User input isn’t correct the majority of the time, anyway. If I was looking at ‘what should be done’ for ‘class balance’ I’m going to wager that ‘balancing the classes’ is going to be somewhere in what I’m thinking about. No?

Not 100% true. They do make changes after and sometimes during AWC.

Where is this coming from. Every site I look at I don’t see this. In fact BM is #1 ranged at 2400 plus. Unless this is 3v3? In which case I would say you have to look further than that. 3v3 is so comp based now days it’s not even funny.

This is where the majority of people are though.

Why wouldn’t it be be centered around the ladder? Not sure what simulated environments has anything to do with PvP. That sounds like a PvE take quite honestly. All a simulated environment is good for is damage rotations to me anyway.

User input is 100% important. Not sure why you wouldn’t use user input?

Bahah. I still remember one time heading to mines as fast as I could in an RBG during SL to save my team, and not seeing the faint red circle… BARELY stepped inside and instant :skull_and_crossbones:

And those 10man Balance Druid teams were scary!

TBH I hate how much they gutted convoke. It used to be so fun to press.

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I saw a little youtube short that made it look like it made a comeback, not quite to its former glory.

AWC is made up of…the top ladder players, of course they make changes based on ladder play.

Where did I say they didn’t?