Armor vs avoidance

Classes Rogue
1

Rogues get a bad deal at every turn.
In this episode of _____(metal twisted object with a point at one end and a slot on the other) the rogue, we have the lie of avoidance. Take melee attacks with a warrior vs rogue. Compare damage mitigation. Do that for 15 minutes and post the chart. Along the Y axis you have damage reduced, on the X axis you have rogue and warrior.

The fact is that rogues do not have anywhere near the damage mitigation warriors do. Even fury warriors.

But but but that is because you have so much more damage…wrong…

I mean you have so much more mobility…wrong.

I mean you have an ability that makes you completely immune to CC…oh yeah that is the warrior.

What can you do better? Oh right die.
I mean you can stun…oh I guess the warrior can too.

2

There are many differences between warriors and rogues such as stun durations, cooldown length, weapon speed.

3

We already listened to your unjustified whining in the other thread. You don’t need to start your own…

1 Like
4

Rogue (both outlaw and sin) are top tier damage dealers. Outlaw is literally the top mythic plus damage dealer alongside havoc.

What? Sprint…shadowstep…Grapple…Mobility isn’t much of an issue. You even have ranged snares as a rogue.

I guess 100% chance to dodge melee or 100% chance to have spells miss doesn’t count as immune for some reason?

One of the reasons that rogue is so good in mythic plus is cheat death (free death every 6 min) and feint. So…

Not nearly the frequency of a rogue. Rogue stuns>warrior stuns

Bottom line, rogues are better represented in both pvp and pve than warrior right now. Pretty much everything you said was wrong. Impressive!

2 Likes
5

I 100% agree with the OP and have preached it for many years.

All other classes were designed for damage mitigation by various methods that absorb, reduce or otherwise offset incoming damage.

Rogues, on the other hand, were designed to avoid damage by things such as dodge, parry, cc’s, mobility, etc. As such, rogues were the proverbial “Glass Cannon”. We attacked hard and fast to defeat our opponent as quickly as possible. Often defeating the opponent inside of a stun lock.

After the shedding of many tears, Blizzard gave in and implemented methods which reduced rogue burst damage and shifted it to sustained damage. At the same time, health pools became larger vs damage output and healing was taken to a whole new level.

However, when Blizzard did this, they did not compensate rogue survivability. Very little has been done to increase our avoidance or provide mitigation. Whenever something was done, it was usually met with opposition and was quickly removed. Burst of Speed being a good example. In essence, our cannon was taken away while the glass remains.

Anyone who has been around and played a rogue from the beginning will understand this.

1 Like
6

Why is rogue the #1 melee represented in competitive pvp then?

And if this isn’t about competitive pvp, rogue is a blast in random BGs and can easily swing games.

This is also just flat out wrong. Feint reducing all damage via honor talent, cloak of shadows, crimson vial, leech poison, cheat death all were not original rogue abilities. They have been added over time.

2 Likes
7

Doesn’t matter. Rogues are squishy. That’s a mechanic issue not a rankings issue.

That’s a matter of opinion. I don’t find BG’s nearly as enjoyable as I did pre Legion.

This basically emphasis the point. Except for Leech Poison, these are all cooldowns to be used appropriately when the situation calls for it. They do not offer sustained damage mitigation nor avoidance that other classes enjoy via armor, absorbs, higher health pool, etc.

If you think rogues are fine, you have no idea how hard it used to be to defeat a rogue.

1 Like
8

What are you even talking about? If you aren’t talking about pvp, then you need to be a better rogue. You literally have an out for every occasion.

Yes, welcome to the Rogue class.

Oh, I do. Rogues are more than fine in PvP. Sin rogue is the best melee in game right now for pvp. You just don’t know how to play it I guess?

9

Talk is cheap. And of course your all about PVE. Which really who cares about anything in PVE.

“I guess 100% chance to dodge melee or 100% chance to have spells miss doesn’t count as immune for some reason?” - someone dumb

feint - 40% reduction on AOE effects for a massive 5 seconds. Cooldown 15 seconds…plus global

Evasion - 10 seconds of dodge to melee. Triggers overpower which can be done twice. Overpower is not dodged. Typical rogue skill…always a down side. But 2 minutes of cooldown. Still eating greater pyros. Does not clear CC.

Cloak of shadows 5 seconds of protection from spells. Removes spell effects - not bleeds. 2 minute cooldown.

So you get < 5 seconds of immunity because you need to cast each one and have a global cooldown. Not much less than 5 seconds but less. Then you can have 5 more seconds in 120 seconds.

So every 2 minutes you get 5 seconds. of being immune to damage.
A warrior get 2 minutes of armor protection for 2 minutes.

Say somebody was doing 150000 damage to you in 5 seconds.

120 / 5 = 24 attacks
24 * 150000 = 3600000 damage possible
warrior armor say only reduces 10% = 360000 reduced.
Rogue removes 1 attack for 150000.

Warrior with passives has double the damage avoidance. In fact:

360000 / 150000 = 2.4 times as much.

But but but…that rogue can stun somebody and avoid damage.
Well OK say 5 guys are targeting the rogue and the warrior for the same 150000 over 5 seconds.

Say the rogue can perma stun lock 1 of them.
4 * 150000 = 600,000
5 * 135000 = 675,000

So the warrior would take 75000 more damage in those 5 seconds, BUT he has way more health. So in actuality the warrior takes about the same (slightly more) than the rogue.

Math taking top warrior and top rogue from 2v2 pvp boards
warrior 393600
rogue 356760

393600 / 356760 = 1.10
675000 / 600000 = 1.125

AND this is if the warrior does nothing to stop any damage coming in. Just 10% damage reduction of armor.

AND THIS IS WITH A STATED 10% REDUCTION! I’m not sure any warrior has 10% or less damage reduction! Heck defensive stance reduces it by 20% THEN add armor.

Lastly…“competative pvp”…you mean sanboxed stupid pvp where you actually can have less skill and do better than world pvp or BG’s. You can see in real non-sandboxed pvp (The vast majority played in the game.) Rogues really come out short.

But actually druids do that better. And the top 50 their are 7 rogues and 7 druids, but the druids are placed higher in every way.
Top 50
7 druids
7 rogues
5 warlocks
4 pallys
3 monks
6 priests
6 DH
2 DK
1 warrior
4 shaman
3 mages

So I guess warriors, mages, monks and DK’s are the worst pvp spec in the game according to your logic.

10

I think you’re missing the point of the original post.

Rogues have always been squishy. We used to counter this by quickly eliminating our opponents. The “glass cannon” analogy. People cried, a lot. Blizzard shifted rouge damage away from burst to sustained. However, very little has been done to increase our damage mitigation.

That’s all I’m saying. I’m not arguing about the current state of the class.

11

Rogue is literally the most represented melee in pvp so…

12

@ Badbud
Don’t even bother to respond. This guy just doesn’t get it. It’s like trying to explain the color blue to a blind person.

13

I’m just laughing at you two crying over rogues.

They are literally the best melee in PvE and PvP. And you are crying because you can’t passively tank damage better than a plate wearer that doesn’t nearly have the escape tools of a rogue :clown_face:

Like you would have a point if warriors had all the tools of a rogue, but they don’t. Once an enemy engages them, they are in it for better or worse. There is no getting away. You kill it before it kills you. Rogues can escape so many things, or avoid so many things, and you want them to also passively just be able to tank things like a plate class.

And no, I really don’t think you should be able to kill people in a single stun lock. Vanilla PvP was stupid. I could drown people with polymorph, or literally one shot them from stealth. That isn’t engaging game play, but if you really miss it, go back to it.

1 Like