Are you happy with the state of Rogues?

Classes Rogue
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Are you happy with the state of Rogues?

No, not really. The only spec I play is outlaw. I’m not a fan of sin and sub is held together by cheap gimmicks and revolves way too much around shadow dance for my liking (hoping for a sub rework some day - another spec that has lost it’s identity since Legion).

Even so, I think outlaw is in rough shape. Whether in PvE or PvP the core problem is the same. As outlaw you have to put in way too much effort for way too little reward. I have to juggle various maintenance buffs, debuffs, procs, and CDR, all of which is nearly impossible to do without Weakauras, just to do middle of the pack damage at best. Meanwhile, a warrior pressing his three button rotation will easily outdamage me.

None of my abilities feel like they hit hard. Greenskins pistol shots used to have impact back in SL, now it’s barely even noticeable. Dispatch does nothing, even when propped up by the 4 set bonus and running 7 combo points. Killing Spree is a complete joke and does less damage than my normal rotation. Sinister Strike does nothing. The only thing that feels ok to press is ambush, which is also propped up by a tier set bonus that is going away very soon.

In PvP, my defensives are so weak that I have no real opportunity to do any damage. Feint used to be good back in SL, now it’s garbage because 20% damage reduction is not enough when damage is so high. I can literally die to people who aren’t even targeting me. Outlaw has completely lost it’s niche and identity in PvP.

I made a thread in the 10.1 PTR forum to discuss the current issues with outlaw in PvP and what could be improved, please feel free to add to the discussion.
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/outlaw-rogue-needs-help-pvp/1560936/11

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I think they’ve already generated the fix but they have to make it baseline for outlaw rogue. It is solved in our roll the bones procs, 1 that increases energy regeneration and 1 that increases the number of combo points that we get (energy regeneration is buried treasure and broadside is our combo point generation). We need to be able to more consistently achieve both of these buffs which can be done through making Count The Odds more achievable.

COT should be 1 point on our tree for its full benefit and heavy hitter should be baseline.

I’d also argue that improved between the eyes should be swapped with precise cut which would improve our single target damage output/value of crit on outlaw with scaling. I know I am tangenting into a separate issue from our energy starvation but this is also an issue in the feel of the spec because of how our AOE works. We are required to target focus due to the between the eyes debuff preventing us from easily swapping targets. We basically need single target damage to do multi target damage. This is an issue currently with the spec because If you check out boss damage in logs we are near deadlast only pretty much beating out WW (my other class obviously…sigh). That means you feel awful in the majority of raids because you basically have no priority damage and we will scale poorly in multi target situations.

The changes I suggest would make our vanish cooldown and shadow dance window more important because it would set up the rest of the rotation outside of those two cool downs and then help our scaling.

P.S. outlaw is honestly a beautiful spec. It is possibly the most complicated proc based class in the game. You have to track 1. opportunity procs 2. roll the bones procs 3. BTW debuff and greenskins which you want to use with 4. half cost opportunity pistol shots and then 5. restless blades cooldowns. 6. maintain high uptime on the mobs themselves for our faster than normal melee attack speed through 7. slice and dice. It’s an intense fast paced engaging spec that suffers from just a couple of issues that will truly make it exceptional to play.

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My hero.

I think it’s safe to say we’re the mushroom now lads - kept in the dark and fed excrement.

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You’d be wrong.

MoP was the last time I tried to do arenas seriously and only with friends. Again, I don’t look for the game to tell me whether or not I’m having fun, or whether or not my opinions and thoughts on the game topics are valid.

Interesting take–I too enjoyed the short form video where an enhancement Shaman catches a rogue out of stealth with a handful of dirt and the warrior catches a vanished rogue while barehanded and breaks it’s neck. It was very insightful to playability and theme.

/s

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It’s not so much a take as it is a demonstration of what Blizzard intends. Others in this thread understand this as well. Like it or don’t, it doesn’t really change anything.

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That about sums up the thread on Rogues. Eh, we tried. Pack it up.

Fwiw, this isn’t a cross I particularly care to die on when there are other issues. But I do believe those other issues never go away completely when the counterargument can point to the evidence of degenerate play from a strict invisibility. To me the concern is PvE enjoyment suffers from the PvP balancing conversation around Stealth.

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And many here don’t see stealth play as “degenerate.” Many see that other classes have the ability to replicate stealth or provide their own version of it as well as the evolution of the game and its classes to the point that there are many more ways to counter/break stealth than there were at the start.

Though at the end of the day if you’re only concerned about the PvE element of the game and don’t care what those who primarily PvP would have to deal with to see the game reimagined according to your design, then there isn’t much discussion to be had. It’s an “I want what I want and don’t care what that does to your fun” statement, which is pretty inarguable. Enjoy playing your rogue in the game we’re given I guess. Or don’t.

:dracthyr_shrug:

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It’s so disingenuous to paint an increase to stealth detection as this radical.

Bigger fish…

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It’s disingenuous to make it seem like that’s all you’ve suggested. In addition to campaigning for stealth detection to extend 20 YARDS ahead of a player in a cone (which is way too far if you ask me), you’ve tried to assert that stealth used to be a “sneak,” which was proven by another poster to never have been true.

Sure there are bigger fish to fry. I’m not entirely happy with the state of rogues myself. Believe me, I’m not trying to be the dog drinking coffee in the burning room while saying everything is fine. I simply disagree on a fundamental level with the weight you’ve put on stealth as the root of so many problems, and I’m not alone in that sentiment in reading the other responses in this thread.

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And you can disagree. But like it or not, that is the conversation that’s being had.

20 yards, arbitrary. How would you feel at a 15 yard cone?

In the cinematic you linked, we are a third person watching Saurfaung catch a rogue (in Vanish no less). To a third person, it would be exactly as depicted. To Saurfaung, he would have seen the rogue to know where it’s neck was.

We’re both spitballing here and we both have holes, but that’s what I want – can we have a conversation where we meet in the middle or are we hard-nosed staying on either side of the conversation?

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Let me ask you this. What would you suggest rogues get as compensation for effectively having their chance at getting an opener cut down so drastically? More damage? The greater community hates when we have a lot of damage. More CC? Community hates that with a burning passion too, and the game has changed in a lot of ways to mitigate our CC and level the playing field by giving other classes more of it as well. At what point do we become just leather-wearing warriors if we’re primarily survivable, stand-your-ground melee characters whose stealth is far less consequential or not really essential at all?

The cinematic is just that. A dramatization of some of the biggest names in the story catching two no-name rogues and beating them at their own game. Thrall obviously exposes the one with the ashes. Saurfang hears the footsteps of the one running toward him at the start of the fight, allowing him to counter and avoid being ambushed.
Then he telegraphs the lofty backflip of the other in order to catch and snap the way he does. Much like how a hunter often seems able to figure out the direct angle of my departure when I vanish in order to drop a flare directly on my invisible head and nullify my cooldown.

Personally, I’m not one of the people pining for the days of how things were designed before Legion. I think we’d be in a spot I could be overall happy with given just a few changes and tweaks. I’m just not sure that going after stealth is really what’s going to tackle our issues with being one of if not the squishiest class in the game or the fact that our damage has been nerfed across all specs for a few patches and hotfixes in a row now. I think those things along with some fundamentals of each spec’s designs (aside from stealth) are where we’re really finding our issues.

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Yes, talking about changes to stealth detection is a red herring to Rogue’s needs. I still stand by my opinions on it and shared my thoughts, whether or not they’re popular here and now.

I think primarily what I’m looking for with any adjustment is depth of planning, which is a sort of non-sense request in today’s action-packed combat simulator. If I want that, WoW is a bad game for it.

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No. No I am not. First few weeks were fun, then the rollouts diminished outlaw. So now, the Alli outlaw has retired. No ifs, ands, or buts. It’s all about the warrior queen troll now. A shame most my gear was soulbound because I would’ve sent them to my alts and felt like my rogue wasn’t wasted. Oh well, long live Amun.

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Edit: after reading some responses, I’m realizing most of you were talking about PvP. I was only talking about PvE. Your gripes make more sense in a PvP context but i wouldn’t be familiar with it.

I’m going to ignore the damage/scaling issues because 1) if they’re really that much of a problem, it’s pretty easy for Blizz to tune a number and they’ve shown a willingness and agility in doing so in the opening patch of Dragonflight 2) I’m not seeing this numbers problem that you are. Sin is not the clear top single target like it was in the first weeks but it’s still up there. Outlaw/Sub do healthy ST while having robust on-demand AoE. I’d rather focus on issues of design.

First, the idea that they don’t have group utility. Seems laughable to me. Let’s first address an issue in your original post: if you use Kidney Shot at max combo points you’re almost certainly using it wrong. 98% of the time if you’re using a stun, it’s to stop an ability. Whether you stop it with one combo point or all of them, the result is the same. I find that most of the time when I need a stop, i have time to build to full combo points and use a damage spender, which refunds a combo point leaving me with one for kidney shot. Stop using kidney shot at full combo points unless you NEED the duration for some reason. Of course that’s not the only stop they have, they also have blind/gouge/cheap shot and probably more I’m forgetting, it’s been a couple weeks since I touched my beloved rogue.

They also have Atrophic Poison now which is one of the most powerful “mandatory buffs” in a raid.

While they don’t have group utility that’s immediately obvious, they’ve always been able to cheese mechanics if you’re smart and know when to use cloak/evasion/vanish/cheat death. I mained a rogue in 10.0 and I’m using the end of this patch to switch to Enhance for 10.1. Despite Shaman having a LOT more group utility on paper, they don’t really have anything to cheese mechanics. I’m so annoyed with my inability to cheese. If you can cheese a mechanic so your group doesn’t have to deal with it, as far as I’m concerned, that’s group utility.

One thing you didn’t touch on was their survivability. A big talking point for speculation at the start of this season was “the meta might not be who does the most damage, but rather who can survive.” Leech, increased melee range putting them safely out of harm that threatens other melee, crimson vial, Feint as well as the other abilities I mentioned for cheesing mechanics just about guarantees your rogue is the last one standing. Even if they’re not the top dps on paper a dead dps does zero damage.

While rogues are lacking in some traditional group utility, I would argue that they bring quite a few stops and the ability to frequently cheese mechanics. They’re not going to do everything, and no one should. The only shortfall of the class in my eyes is Sin’s AoE, and as long as you’re willing to switch specs when AoE is needed, that’s not really a problem.

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to the OP: short version: sort of?

Details: I play Assassination. I am responding about PVE.

  • I do like that character-centered AOE is stronger. That makes questing, farming rares with adds, running old content, etc. all easier.
  • I don’t mind complexity in the rotation. I have always mained rogue. It isn’t supposed to be easy. Keeping a variety of DOTs going is fine. Knowing when to deviate from damage DOTs to interrupts or cc is an ok part of the overall challenge.
  • I do NOT like how useless our CC is in dungeons and raids. Kidney punch does not always work. Kick does not always work. Blind does not always work. Shiv only soothes one target (yes, you can talent into a second charge for shiv, that’s good). Cheap shot, I gave up on it as an opener… better to open with garrote. Way too many targets have uninterruptible casts.
  • I do NOT like some of the interactions between talents, abilities, damage, and cc. This is a Very Long List, but things like:
  1. Tricks should be baseline and not talented; or, if talented, should be enhanced beyond its baseline somehow.
  2. Shiv’s core function is a soothe, why not move the damage currents available via Shiv talents onto other abilities, and expand shiv into an AOE soothe? Would be very handy in Brackenhide Hollow, Nokhud, bad trash pulls, etc.
  3. Exsanguinate sucks; just use the talent to passively modify bleed damage.
  4. Deathmark’s cooldown should be 30 seconds shorter
  5. Deathmark should apply to Crimson Tempest, too. That is, if we’re going to be forced to keep Crimson Tempest. I would rather dump Crimson Tempest and have a talent that adds bleeds to Fan of Knives or something.
  6. Cloak of Shadows needs a shorter cooldown, and it needs to work vs. more things, like fear. I said it.
  • Most of all, I resent that assassination is capped at like 5th or worse on boss damage, and worst on overall damage. We have to work very hard just to be mediocre. Raids and M+ runs can take almost any other DPS class/spec and do better than an assassination rogue can*. How many times did assassination show up in the M+ world championships? I think it was 0? But the point is, there shouldn’t be that much disparity between sub, outlaw, and assassination, because we basically all have the same job, but achieve it through different means. And we know from a blue comment about recent nerfs to Ret Paladins that they can tune the damage of an entire spec by a flat percentage up or down. I do want them to fix issues that are forcing us into gameplay we don’t like, that isn’t fun or interesting, etc. But I also don’t like that they could just tune us up by a flat percent while we wait, but are deciding not to.

*= our survivability is fun, though. And you can’t do damage if you’re dead. And usually, mechanics > damage, so.

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For the last nine weeks, assassination is 5th or worst in single target damage, and worst on overall damage. That’s, you know, weird, and bad.

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Damage control on rogues boys and girls. All 3 can’t be great / good or the community blows a fuse every time. Wait for reworks as at some point they honestly will.

  • Cloak does work on fear btw just not stuff that are physical fears such as intimidating shout from warriors as it is a physical ability unlike warlock / priest / sleep walk etc.

  • We had a shorter cd on cloak that was talented but people blow fuses on that too.

Just gotta take it as we can get it man, we were the last developed (no joke) again and that’s just it. Not many actually are a rogue but people alt rogues. They put resources into the classes such as hunter / paladin / warlock etc prob because its safer to make those classes solid as many more play it.

I’m forever and always only a rogue and it isn’t cool how we get snipped but yeah… dunno man. If we get pushed back to wod / cata rogue that would be a great start instead of mudding up “identity” for the sake of it.

Return all of our tools, get rid of gimmicks, make base abilities punch again.

Idc if i had to talent 10x into slightly different named backstab , eviscerate , and fw nodes to do so. Bring back wod Subtlety.

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I think people ALWAYS complain about Rogues in PvP, even when Rogue specs underperform compared with other classes.

That’s literally why that one Pilgrim’s Bounty achievement exists. They made that specifically for all the players who hate Rogues in PvP.

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I just started rogue from a 6 month break after Shadow Lands and What I figured out and questioning is why in the hell do they take our ability away to use stealth in NpC battle after initial attack sequence. We should be able to put an aoe on the ground to force intended targets in the area to stay engaged while popping back into stealth and rotate our CCs as intended like PvP this would make questing especially in hardcore way more tangible without being caught blind sided to death with how squishy the class is. But instead popping stealth again in battle resets them and must go through the whole phase again which is unfair. Also I see alot of dumb comments on wanting to pop shadow dance from stealth which if they read it correctly its just allowing stealth abilities while unstealthed burn your abilities in stealth pop out and SD to get a second shot with stealthed abilities. Not sure why some players are illiterate or lacking the cognitive ability to figure out its intended function.

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I assume you are referring to using Vanish while fighting an NPC. Vanish has always, since day 1, dropped aggro against NPC’s (expect ones with true sight). Way more often than not, this has has saved my a$$. Be careful what you wish for.

I don’t get this either. What is annoying is not being able to stealth while Shadow Dance is active. What happens a lot is I pop Shadow Dance and my target dies and I’m out of combat before SD buff ends. I have to use a cancelaura macro to drop the Shadow Dance buff before I can use Stealth. Really annoying.

1 Like