In regards to PvP, I’m feeling really squishy after the 10.1.5 patch. Feels like multiple classes are just melting me within a few globals. Meanwhile my damage output is pitiful. Playing a rogue is so not fun at the moment.
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The kind of guardrailing we’ve received compared to other classes beyond 10.1 is pretty lame, totally agreed.
Bugs aside, the two standout things I’ve noticed are that needing to reset in a big group fight is basically way more of a death sentence because our CC took a serious hit relative to others heading into 10.1, and that it’s pretty lame to now need to think even more deeply about when cloak is to be used. I think people would be hard-pressed to find a class that has more beneficial talents and abilities firmly tied to important, life-saving utility. Every time an ability ships like that, it makes me think that we almost got a great bit of ability design before having it shot down and crimped by the designers of other classes that don’t want to enrage their specific playerbase with the shiny new rogue toys.
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I could tolerate being squishy if my damage output was at level that made other classes regret engaging me. Currently, they just drool while mumbling something about a free kill. 
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Totally, yep. I’m hoping that our upcoming design review includes a lot of updates for abilities that are just incredibly outdated at this point. Cheap shot, for example – why is CS still a stun exactly? I have this in posts elsewhere on here; stunting Kidney’s duration and handing out elective little stuns to more or less every spec in the game creates hectic, annoying moments where we’re sweating and weaving two stuns into game situations that are rife with chaotic DR. I’d be impressed if anyone could reasonably argue against CS becoming a brief knockdown (ie. removed from stun DR) instead.
Knockdowns are stuns and are usually shorter. The knockdown mechanic such as kul tiran haymaker is both.
They aren’t going to allow 4 sec cs into a 5 sec kidney or the other way around.
That isn’t balanced regardless of any class, core kit abilities being impactful is the most we can aim for.
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Knockdowns are stuns and are usually shorter. The knockdown mechanic such as kul tiran haymaker is both. Throwdown from warriors back in the day functioned the same.
They aren’t going to allow 4 sec cs into a 5 sec kidney or the other way around.
That isn’t balanced regardless of any class, core kit abilities being impactful is the most we can aim for.
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Huh, your mention of Throwdown actually makes me think of one legitimate caveat – enemies can’t trinket if they’re animation-locked in the knockdown itself, which was a problem with TD I think? Technically speaking, the +category for Haymaker is a knockback, no? I wonder (and don’t actually know, to be fair) if that’s characteristically different than a knockdown. For example, Shadowlands’ AA was a knockdown. Was that effect independent of DR, or was it like something like current Warbringer where it incurred stun DR?
In any event, I agree that the full four second knockdown probably wouldn’t fly, but (and maybe this is all ultimately just more a problem of Blind existing in outer space, designwise, come to think of it) it wouldn’t be too, too far removed from what certain tri-CC classes are capable of, and they don’t need to worry as much as we do about DR or need to use their CC to reset, which is notable. I’m actually trying to think if I’d rather CS in its current form or a newfangled CS where it just knocks someone flat for like 2 GCD off stun DR.
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The hooks to abilities (wowhead search) mention things such as throwdown and haymaker previously discussed have both of those mechanics by effect 1 and effect 2 then auras to make them work as intended.
Dunno if we could reasonably win arguments being rogues as anything we do is highly illegal by reading forums posts.
The trade would be to lose actual cheap shot and the “new” cheap shot would have a CD. Id rather have cheap shot generate 2 cb pts again. We are the only class that truly relies on cc at this point and it is more than unlikely for them to change us much in terms of balance across the board.
Even if that did fly, people would then gripe till the end of time.
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Definitely a good point about CS’s point gain. I wonder if there would be a way to fold that into Gouge, which is an excellent classwide addition, even more than it has currently – Gouge is +1 IIRC, right? I think it also has a higher energy cost compared to previous versions of the spell.
But yeah, ultimately, your point about the effectiveness of dramatic changes being moot because of player perception is way valid. I have a few wandering points about it on here, that we would be helped immeasurably if we were removed from our role-immobility. RPGs in general have a very hard time balancing dps/striker classes because they’re flashy and summon a lot of ire from players that play classes with more hybridity. No matter a person’s ultimate opinion about who deserves what, that much is true – pure damage classes have a much higher burden of proof.
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Gouge costed 45 energy back in the day and can only generate an additional cb pt during shadow blades along with cheapshot (during sb). It used to generate 2 with seal fate back in the day because gouge did small damage and would crit if I remember right. Gouge could be talented to 2/2 to become 5.5 seconds up until cataclysm if i remember right.
Sap being 5 sec sucks along with blind but whatever. Not much we can do about it.
I believe outlaw kids can use a rtb buff that gives 2 during gouge or other builders but im no outlaw . Would have to send a raven to summon some outlaw friends in here for clarification.
Gouge being back is needed for sure though. Thing is team mates aren’t quick thinking enough to cc out of your gouge or decide to dot that target anyway which forces you to throw kidney shots for cc instead of doing damage.
I dunno all rogues have step now x 2 for Subtlety and Assassination
Outlaw has grappling hook + step + bladerush.
I don’t think mobility is a big issue when other classes have more mobility or tools to prevent movement if done well.
Ex: mage 2 shimmers + displacement to reset it + alter time “shimmer/blink”. 2 frost novas and other slows.
If done well, will deter melee pretty dang well.
Yeah community perception definitely does hit rogues regardless meanwhile others maintain theirs. By all means definitely tune ludicrous abilities in pvp and pve.
As long as my base kit can do well, I’m pretty happy. Id rather have many tools at my disposal than to be pruned for the sake of it.
The plenty classes have tools to deal with stuff, some more than others + team mates to make solid decisions but that is another discussion.
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I assume everyone saw this: Class Tuning Incoming – July 25
Buffs to every other class is essentially a nerf to rogues. Each week It keeps getting worse and worse.
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It’s fine, good for them.unfortunately we have to just be cool and maintain a level head.
They also said in those notes more is being announced on monday. Still wouldn’t keep my daggers crossed for anything though.
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I just finished a few BG today. I’m really feeling everyone else’s buffs.
This patch just keep getting better and better.
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