Hahah, lets leave out the original class designer who knows the original intent so we can just leave it open to speculation so we can do whatever we want and change the game…
Basically what I see there.
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Go check wow logs and look at the top damage rets. Plenty of big pumpers among the tryhards
not the best of examples since basically every top parse is based on 30 second fights where scrolls of blinding light has 75% uptime. This is not directly against Paladins but it stands for basically every Druid,Paladin,Priest,Hunter top parse its a raid of 16 Warriors and Rogues and that one hybrid there to parse.
…really?
10 char
It was nerfed because it could be bugged.
If you launched the seal and unequipped and reequipped the weapon the damage reduction was removed from the equation until you zoned or died…even if the seal dropped.
As a result talented, bugged SotC was 40% haste with nearly as much AP as BoM…and stacked with BoM.
So a Brain Hacker or Blade of Hanna were attacking in 1.5s. Couple that with +9 damage to 2 hander and/or sharpening stones and Paladins were pumping out very strong DPS…which of course was not the intent! 
Also with JoW on target, the same Paladin was generating ~1200 mana per minute for use with Exorcism, Holy Wrath, or Consecration.
The same Ret Spec also included Kings as the 31 point Ret talent, Consecration in the Ret tree, and Precision in the Ret tree.
What? It was simply that SotC didn’t actually reduce damage. There was no gimmicky trick to it.
As we can all see right now, it was not OP. At best it would have allowed paladins to compete with other classes.
Also, if you want fast mana regen SoF gave you 5 chances to proc JoL/W.
Yes, really. 
Ret was one of the last classes made and the changes in TBC were the fixes that didn’t make into og classic.
It’s an unfinished class, no point in making something of it that it’s not
In 1.22 the bug was fixed.
It’s actually listed in the patch notes…
At the time, ie no 1.12, it was OP, considering the talent layout and support abilities of Paladins.
I can’t think of a single situation where I was out damaged as a Paladin outside of heavy AE. 300+ DPS was virtually unheard of at the time. Attained by stacking 2 talented AP buffs and a BoE epic with a cheap enchant and sharpening stones.
However I agree with later patches in no way would pre nerf SotC been considered OP post 1.12.
I was referring to maintaining DPS output while generating regen in a group or raid. Judging prior to 1.9 was pretty horrible damage, outside of JoR, for damage, so using JoW to fuel other spell damage was handy.
Well yeah, I already mentioned that in one of the posts you quoted. It was patched 4 months after the release of WoW.
It was in no way OP. The amount of system mastery you are implying people would have to make it that strong just wasn’t there. That same mastery could be applied to most non caster classes to achieve similar dps. It put paladins at similar levels to the two other melee classes.
What other spell damage? Consecration? Not to mention that paladin damage spells are the least efficient spells in the game when it comes to the mana spent per point of damage. JoR did/does less damage than arcane shot and costs 50% more.
1200 mana per minute isn’t much. At best it covers a little more than 50% of a judgement rotation (every third judgment to refresh). 20 mana per second compared to 38.5 mana per second spent. You are still spending 90 mps if you are even allowed to use consecration (on par with most casters). Considering the hybrid nature of a paladin, the extra mana would also be used to fuel cleanse and additional healing.
I would also like to point out that it would require a 2.1 speed weapon or lower to even reach 1200 mana per minute with SotC with only 343 mana actually attributable to SotC. Even that is only if all swings actually hit the target. Considering the lack of knowledge and +hit gear and dodge chance, that is highly unlikely.
What mastery?!
Equip fast 2 hander.
Judge Wisdom.
Launch SotC and swing!
Use Cons and/or Exorcism as needed.
Thats not hard.
What would you be Judging?!
Your not judging for damage and your still netting nearly a free Consecration every minute not including base mana.
Back then everyone drank after pulls.
Please tell me your kidding with all this.
First I listed two 2.1 delay 2handers…so that was evident.
Secondly Precision was in the Ret tree at the time…and Paladins only needed 2% more hit while grouped while dodge was only 5% if the mob wasn’t stunned…which they could be.
Multiple parsers, from nearly day 1, tracked misses.
You don’t need to know the mechanics…if your missing attempted hits, then add more +hit till it stops. It’s not like it required a calculator or deep game knowledge…it’s in the name +hit!!!
Its simply. During the first 4 months or so of the game, Paladins were putting out as much or more damage than other classes using SotC.
Auto attack alone, even with the unbugged version of the spell, with a cheap enchant, sharpening stone, and double stacking AP buffs to early 4 digit AP values, allowed Paladins to push 250 DPS by turning on attack.
Then add Cleanse, BoP, BoF, free cast heal, half heal threat generation, Blessings, + JoW = OP…at the time.
Later on it would have been fine. But prior to 1.9, with 1.1 SotC, Paladins were very strong.
I never said it was hard. System mastery includes game knowledge that most didn’t have at the time.
JoR does damage, and you need to refresh JotC/JoW every 30 seconds. Are you possibly thinking the judgement system we got in patch 1.9 was in effect in 1.1?
Consecration costs 565 mana. 343 mana covers 60% of one consecration over an entire minute. If you want to add the 2 JoW refreshes every minute (it was actually possible to resist judgements at this time so it could be more) that 1200 mana is reduced to simply 710 mana every minute. Such a huge amount of mana over a minute. Paladins would still have to drink after pulls.
First, on non boss mobs you wouldn’t bother judging wisdom because it costs 245 mana with benediction. You don’t want to spend 245 every 10 seconds because on average you will spend more than you could ever gain.
Second, on raid bosses you have a 9% chance to miss, 8% chance to be dodged. even with precision that is still. as a dwarf you have an 86% chance to hit the boss. As a human you have a 90% chance. A level 62 dungeon boss would still be only a 91% chance to hit with 2% miss and 7% dodge. So not a lot of hit to add.
I hope you are able to realize that other classes were also pushing 250 dps without even trying hard either. Heck, warriors could simply one button macro spam and get 300+ dps trying as hard as the paladin. You are right, wow didn’t require deep game knowledge to play your character, but it did require that knowledge to push your character to the limits.
I have to disagree that SotC pre-nerf was too strong. Nothing you are saying even makes a strong case for it to be too strong. You can’t say it was too strong in pvp when paladins didn’t have a gap closer except in a tree that many didn’t use because they didn’t understand the greatness of reckoning until after the kazzak video.
Also, I really want to point out that there is no heal that a paladin has that is ever free. You trade your swings to heal, period. That is and always has been even more painful than the mana cost
…paladin healing didn’t get the threat reduction until much later. Not to mention the other healers had threat reduction talents. And the threat reduction was to nerf heal tanking because it does a crap ton of threat for a lot of survivability.
Most drank after pulls.
JoW was for instance bosses, not trash.
Auto attack for a Paladins was 250 DPS with a BoE weapon at 60.
Just auto attack. Nothing complex. Not intimate class knowledge…just SotC, a cheap enchant, sharpening stone, and auto attack.
Dodge is 6.5%. Its 6% with 305 weapon skill.
With Precision Paladins only needed 2% more hit in an instance. I can list the easy to acquire gear for that.
Nor is it hard to figure out if your missing…they were tracked from day 1 in every meter.
As I already stated, at the time it was. Later on it wasn’t
But at the advent of WoW, ie instancing and Ony, Mages and Warriors were NOT doing 300 DPS prior to revamped talents and DM.
Walking into a group, and matching or exceeding the damage of pure DPS classes, as a Paladin, with the support the class brings, AT THE TIME, was overpowered.
Healing threat is .25 threat per point healed…on a plate class, which cost no mana to cast and healed for 2100+ HPs, which at the time was 40%+ of an instance tanks HPs.
For heavy pulls, it spread the threat around so a cloth or leather healer didn’t get dead.
Wow nitpick much.
Your post didn’t suddenly help us figure out that healing requires cast time for a Paladin…I think most of us realized that without your assistance…we didn’t need your epiphany.
However 2.5s of DPS sacrifice, to deliver a 2100+ HP timely heal, to give your healer breathing room, for EVERY pull, is very powerful.
Let me bottom line this.
Top notch DPS in a PvE group.
2100+ free healing every pull.
Cleanse.
Blessing support.
BoP.
DS + heal during sticky situations.
Blessing of Kings.
Talented BoM.
Paladins during early WoW were OP, and were NECESSARY to raid, due to Kings being the 31 point talent.
And? Other classes could reach that using abilities they have just like the paladin did. Mages can reach that simply tapping one button while attacking from range.
And? They suffer from MAD to do anything other than auto something to death.
Warriors and rogues, the direct competitors of paladin at the time, were doing more than that if a paladin was. The math is there for them just like it is for paladin.
You are bringing up the healing threat of paladin. During the time of the not nerfed SotC the threat modifier for healing was 50% just like priests, druids, and shamans. It wasn’t until much closer to the release of 1.9 that the modifier was changed to 25% to make room for Righteous Fury.
If the paladin went full AP, there is no way in hell that they could get even 2000 out of the holy light without +healing gear which they wouldn’t have or a crit. Even then it would eat up 1/4 of their mana pool which would replace a consecration or take an average 50 seconds to replace with JoW regen.
Even then it costs them anywhere from 4 seconds all the way to 5.5 seconds of dps from a 2.1 speed weapon with the way spells reset swing timers and how reactionary it would be. This goes all the way up to 8.2 seconds with a 4.0 speed weapon and 10.5 seconds without SotC. That is not a paltry amount of time spent not doing any damage. Popping out FoLs with a slow weapon similar to proper slam usage is still a viable strategy. Well, at the time anyway. The current meta and post nerf, makes that strategy a non-starter because FoL is so damn weak.
First, it is a huge disparity when talking about hybrid capabilities. Hybrids can’t bring 50% heals of a full healer AND 50% dps of a DPSer. They currently bring 50% of the dps and 0% of the healing. Even if they did 100% of the dps of a Warrior, they would still be bringing 0% of the healing. The only way to even reach 50% heals and 50% dps would be to have a 1.5 second attack speed and perfectly alternate between an auto and FoL that does the exact same healing as you do damage. Remember, this is actually cutting your DPS in half to do half of it in healing. This was actually technically possible with your 2.1 speed epic and SotC with no +healing and no BoL. Now it is simply impossible to do without Naxx gear and full raid buffs.
Just so you know, you only needed 2 paladins for kings and might/wisdom. If as you say no one could reach 300 dps, then there was no need for salvation. Your tank could keep up simply spamming sunder armor. As we all should know, this is definitely not the case. And also as paladins can attest to who raided until the AQ patch, kings being in the ret tree didn’t prevent them from healing.
Long story summed up. You do 0 dps while you heal. Every heal you make drops your dps total from 100%. One HL during a 30 second fight drops your total dps to 87.66% of your maximum at the minimum using SotC and a 2.1 speed weapon. This drops to 79.33% when using a 4.0 speed weapon without SotC. This is a massive trade off. Hybrids were more balanced on the release of WoW and every change only ever brought more disparity.
Wow.
Paladins get a free crit heal for 2100 HPs to lend a hand during a tough pull.
The class wears plate to take a few hits even if a little aggro sheds to the Paladin…
And your answer is you lose nearly 13% of your DPS output per minute…not per pull…
It’s not always necessary, but if your healer is dead…then most of the time you will be shortly as well.
Its that complete BS perspective as to why Rets had bad reputations. You have been given tools to utilize, but your tunnel vision precludes their use.
Paladins can heal.
If a heal keeps someone alive, ie your healer, you use it!
Paladin has plate to take hits until the situation stabilizes.
THATS IT!
Scholo repop in back in the day was 6 minutes, with a massive density of mobs present.
Scholo was set up as a 10 man raid…but nice quest rewards were present if you could single group it prior to the Scholo nerf. That required control and a secondary healer was part of that.
Dear Lord no!
That’s pure revisionist history.
Warriors were NOT pushing 350 to 400 DPS in groups prior to DM. Without a Paladin in a 5 man they didn’t even have the threat gap to even remotely approach that.
Most tanks were Prot Warriors back in the day. No Quel, no TF.
That post alone raises what your saying to pure fiction. In most groups, if I could use Exorcism, I was tickled pink, due to threat limitations.
Never wore a blue dress or that silky smooth turban. Just ain’t my style. And I don’t go OOM wearing plate while healing bwl or naxx, pvp. Consumables have a purpose in classic 
I agree it makes me puke and wonder the same thing. No pride in your class? Bowing down to the masses by wearing what you’ve been instructed to wear? Lol get bent I say 
Sotc…tested a physical build once. Using the Warblade of Caer Darrow with the +9 damage enchant. Improved seal of might and improved Sotc. Had 3 piece Lawbringer bonus and 2-4 pcs of blue pvp gear blackhand breath and holy strength don julios and necessary ret talents. Judged light on target or wisdom for mana on long fights then Sotc and wailed away. Every vengeance proc I threw a quick judgement of righteousness and consecration. I also used the improved SoR talent with Sanctity aura. That’s 40% judgement boost with vengeance. Warblade of Caer Darrow doesn’t take an armor penalty like most other weapons. And the SoC crits will be almost x2 a white weapo crit. I advise any paladin to grab that weapon I actually ended up using it over unstoppable force and pushed to rank 13 with it. 
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Using Ashkandi and field marshal gear or 5 pc tier 2 a paladin will be #1 dps in stratholme and scholomance unless there is a mage present. Using seal of righteousness and max rank consecration and you need to use holy wrath on large packs when it’s off CD and make sure you’re hit capped. I’m sure holy shock is fine, but it can miss a lot, so at the time I was running a 30/21/0 build. Holy power is needed for those judgement and exorcism crits and improved SoR talent helps a lot. Take improved Wisdom talent. Aim for 50-60 mp5 and you won’t have any issues.
it was meta on a pserver because pservers are dogsh** and seal of the crusader wasnt reducing melee damage like it was intended to do, just making auto sings faster and giving a large bump of attack power.
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Fury warriors hate him…
Become top melee dps with this 1 cheap trick.
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so much hate for ret in this thread…
just let people enjoy things