Are we perhaps missing a trick with Ret?

Yeah, you’re definitely going to want fiery or maybe lifestealing?

Hell, even straight up weapon damage would be ok. I might have to play around with this to figure out the best enchant.

Try it out with a sword and board. Let me know how that goes.

Why are you quoting numbers relative with pre-raid BiS dps? Are we in Phase 1? You must be real proud.

I’m not. Here’s P5 data in AQ40.

This is a little tough to understand.

Not all of us think in numbers and charts.

What are you trying to say?

Edit: and how does it relate to the point of the thread?

Basically what they mean to say is stop theorycrafting about a spec they don’t like but they are ambitious enough to post in a thread about a class they don’t want to discuss except with disparaging comments about their potential DPS ceiling in raids being below every other class which wasn’t even the point of the thread if only Rautaketju could read.


That person cannot read. That’s why their name is that :stuck_out_tongue:

Edit: Also Yoss you are my god now.

Just actually look at the image. I think it’s pretty self explanatory. Those are the values of raid-wide DPS averages for ALL specs.

On the highest recorded Ret DPS ever, they got 682, with the average on the higher end not even breaking 400 DPS.

With a 40% increase, the upper quartile of Ret Paladins would, if we’re being generous, break 400 DPS.

Read what I was replying to. Zeliek was making a comment that SotC (the seal suggested in the OP) was nerfed early in vanilla to reduce damage dealt while it was active, and reverting that nerf would result in a 40% increase to DPS.

No, by all means, theorycraft. I encourage it greatly. If you’re going to play what you enjoy, I’d much rather you play it to its fullest potential.

I’m just saying that even with SotC being buffed and receiving a 40% DPS increase, they’d be bottom tier. There’s nothing we’re missing here. Ret is bad. We’ve known it for over a decade. You’re not going to suddenly discover something that changes that fact.

Cute personal insults.

It’s Finnish, by the way, and it’s my name because Ohshiftson was taken on the realm I transferred to and I like the song.

Many proc weapons which scaled with spellpower on the 2006 client do not retain such behavior in Classic+ which really cripples their already low damage potential. Vengeance not benefiting from bonus spell power similar to a Warlock’s Shadow Mastery affecting both the base damage and additional shadow spell damage. Then you have to consider Blizzard made these changes under the pretense of some things not aligning correctly with their ‘reference client’.

Guide to RECKONING (Unchanged in 1.9!) 10/2/2005 7:05:02 PM PDT
“Normally if you’re sitting down you would not get Reckoning charges from auto-attacks. However, you could gain charges from random NPCs by constantly sitting and standing up due to server lag: mob would try to attack you as your were sitting, so it’d be a forced crit. However, if you stood up just as you were getting hit, the server would see you as if you were standing and get a Reckoning charge.”

“I did find this video from 2006 showing a Ret Paladin with Neretzek, The Blood Drinker, and his weapon scales 100% with spellpower. At 1:34 you can see his Drain Life hits for 571 when the proc on Classic only hits for 141 to 163. I also did some reading through the vanilla patch notes, and there were no mention of any changes to drain life or spellpower scaling.”

The overwhelming evidence and video proof is hilarious but I can understand the feeling of not wanting to watch 2006 era 240p youtube pvp videos.

1 Like

so I just started classic myself I was gonna roll a paladin mainly for the fact I was looking for something to find fast groups with at cap and smash some ppl in pvp. I was told however that the warrior is better at both.

Did I make the right choice or should I have stuck to my guns as the paladin.

It just depends what you want to do and how flexible of a player you are. Paladins can easily tank any non-raid content in the game, including ubrs and dmw. They can also bust heads in pvp, whilst being unsarable healers at the same time, with the same gear, in the same spec.

If you wanna raid extensively, yeah, roll warrior.

A clear graph is “tough to understand”.

Says a lot about Ret paladin players :^)


I would like to raid yes as well as getting my hands on some sweet naxx 2hs

No, you’re not some genius that has discovered some new tech that makes Ret Paladins good.
No, you’re not the first person that thinks they can “salvage” Ret.
No, you’re not better than the thousands of other people who tried to fix Ret and quit shortly after they realized the spec is complete garbage.
And no, your selfish white knight fantasy isn’t worth dragging down the other members of your raid.

1 Like

Paladins were better for AoE tanking, and that was it. They were never better for boss tanking or DPS (or mechanically capable of DPS-tanking due to kit limitations).

And yet ironically, when Wrath is released, I guarantee you that this is the sort of player who will roll a Ret pally without batting an eye, because Flavor of the Month (Expansion in this case).

And I say to you and others who do the same, you don’t deserve to be a Paladin.


Some one didn’t know how to tank with a paladin prior to patch 1.9 when paladin tanking got gutted. S/JoFury could out threat Fury/prot and bears. SoF also provided practically unlimited mana combined with JoW.

And come on, you make it sound like tanking going 2h is impossible on a paladin. If a warrior can do it without a shield, a paladin can do it too. You only need so much threat. Even top performing dps warriors are within the bounds of what a prot paladin can accomplish.


I can see you didn’t read the thread. If you had, you would know that it isn’t about “fixing” ret or white-knighting the spec or anything like that.

It boggles my mind how angry and vindictive some people get when others discuss class mechanics in which they are not interested. :laughing:

But, whether DPSing as Ret or healing as Ret – yes of course I heal – no one will ever feel dragged down by me because they will know that I am Ret. Therefore, my presence means that they are OK with it. If I get excluded for my spec, then I didn’t want to raid with them anyway.

Plus, if a raid group has problems in any other context than hard progression content or ultra-speed runs, I can guarantee you that it has bigger issues than Ret. You can’t throw a rock in this forum without hitting a thread about how trivial the content is.


seal of the crusader has been debunked already

You would be surprised at the lengths some players would go just to troll. But now they’ve excused themselves we can talk about forbidden things like weapon/enchant procs and Seal of Righteousness.

Patch_2.1.0 (2007-05-22):
This seal will no longer cause additional chances for weapon procs to trigger.

Unfortunately Improved SoR adds very negligible amounts of damage and doesn’t interact correctly with the two and one handed weapon specialization talents. Your build would be better off with 10% INT to improve mana efficiency as max rank consecration costs a lot of mana even if you’re only using it sparingly with low vengeance uptime.

1 Like

All too true I’m afraid. It gets a little more managable the more T2.5 gear you have, but this is why I always bring tons of Major Mana pots to a raid.