Are we perhaps missing a trick with Ret?

It’s ineffective because of what it says in the tooltip for Seal of Crusader, which is that your damage is lower when you attack faster. It’s only good for getting off fast attacks for weapon procs or quick threat.

You can go spell ret where you judge Crusader and then use improved Righteousness as auto-attack how you’re talking for next to no mana, but your main damage comes from spellpower not the white damage. Most people just prefer to go Command for big melee digits, though.

SotC used to increase attack speed by 40% without reducing damage and give AP. One of the warrior devs got butthurt over losing to a paladin in a duel and so the one thing that gave paladins competitive dps got nerfed because a warrior couldn’t stomach being beaten by a paladin. It’s probably the largest relative dps nerf in the history of WoW. With gear levels in patch 1.2.2, it gutted about one third of the dps a paladin could do. Imagine paladins doing about 40% more dps than you see today without really effecting PvP other than dueling scenarios.


You mean Kalgan?

One of the reasons why I can’t wait to play Wrath. I don’t particularly hate warriors, but knowing I’ll get to play a game where paladins are superior in PVE for both tanking/dps will add humiliation to Kalgans defeat.

I think so? I only really remember his real name.

I don’t hate warriors either, but they are the most buffed class in the entirety of vanilla and they have a singular bug that boosts them further in Classic.

Paladins on the other hand had their dps, tanking, and spelladin capabilities nuked. Hey, on the bright side dps got a 6% boost with the talent revamp and we got an execute that can negate its benefit with bad timing and high mana cost. Hindsight is there to simply tell you how badly you got played.

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SotC sucks for damage; it’s only good for magic immune/resistant targets, and viscidus shattering with a flurry axe.

Reason being is because of the retarded -40% damage modifier when under it.

Even without that, retadins get fairly solid in naxx. They should be around or above the DPS hunters can do(would’ve definitely been above had it not been for the recent AP changes.)

Holy waters shouldn’t be overlooked, either. They scale 100% with spellpower and are effected by sanc aura, so with an average retadin having 200 SP with consumes(about 350 with a flask), on top of imp jotc+libram of fervor for a total of an additional 192 spellpower, holy water becomes becomes a holy nuke.

The best part is that it’s not just the retadin that benefits from it; everyone who brings holy waters does, which can add up to a fairly decent amount of raid damage.

The only downside is that the frequent use of exorcism means there’s gonna be a lot more chugging of mana pots and runes.

If CA doesn’t scale, it’ll still be the 2nd best 2hander a retadin can get from naxx. If it does, or if it has a high proc rate, it’ll be the best. The other option is might of menethil. Either weapon is extremely powerful, but MoM’s damage can’t compete with the cool factor of CA, imo. That neat little RP event alone makes it worth it - a final “cherry on top” to the journey.

Any filthy hunter rolling on it should be forced to wear greens with stam gear, a grey bow, and forced to do pulls only.


On Nostalrius SotC was bugged and increased consecration tick damage so what you’re describing was definitely a thing. On Feenix proc weapons scaled properly with spellpower (they don’t on Classic despite video proof from 2006 posted if anyone wants to see let me know) and 1h ret spelladin with all the proc damage trinkets and flask will actually out damage a 2h ret in their stolen warrior gear.

Stole, eh? You mean like this Onslaught Belt I have? :smiley: Cry about it

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Cry about how a hunter pet can do competitive DPS with you if it gets healed when your full BiS and flasked. :stuck_out_tongue:

Just go holy once you have tier 3 and are a god in pvp.

Just stop right there. No one is claiming Ret paladins can do competitive DPS. Like other paladins in this thread, I have no illusions about that. You don’t bring a ret paladin for competitive DPS. (Also, hunter pets can’t buff/dispel, and won’t be getting heals, so it’s a bit of a straw-man anyway.)

But, this thread isn’t about doing competitive DPS as Ret, per se. It’s fundamentally about learning more about the spec, in the spirit of trying to improve – and also to explore some variety.

Bonus: some of the class history re: early nerfs and p-server results has been quite interesting. :+1:


Esfand, who gets prio on whatever he wants as it is his guild still cannot come close to rogues/warriors/mages.

ret is actually awful and you would benefit from quite literally anything else, even a garbage undergeared bear off tank would be more useful to the raid

That’s nice, and also completely irrelevant to the thread.

you posted asking about how that idea would make rets better, the truth is, nothing will make them more desirable over anything else, the damage increase/gear requirement would be too much for a guild to accept. You would be doing yourself and everyone in the guild a favor by rolling Holy/diff class.

i say this not to be rude but to give you an honest look, I play an alt pally, you could be the best ret in the world, guilds will still take a half-assd warrior first.

Just stop right there.

Remove the part about being desirable over anything else. It has nothing to do with my original query. At all.

I was simply curious about people’s views and experiences on Seal of the Crusader for dealing damage, rather than being judged only.

At the end of the day, Ret is fun and interesting. Learning more about a spec and being creative to try and “push the envelope” are worthwhile and entertaining endeavors in and of themselves.

But, thank you for the frank disclaimer re: not trying to be rude. It is appreciated. If I am frank in turn, I throw up in my mouth a little when I see paladins standing around in town in slinky dresses and feathered turbans. Like, have some dignity out-of-raid, will you? :laughing:


Kinda think everything has been tried.

What everything points to is Kalgan the Warrior Dev (tom chilton) strong armed the class development in a certain direction that made sure that warriors were the dominant class with everyone else being second fiddle or worse.


And I will never, ever let it down. All of the hatred that Ret gets is on him.


He also destroyed Ultima Online, keep that one in mind.


Hell, they might break 400 DPS with that much more damage!

If you have 3/3 improved seal of the crusader AND the tome, it can be useful. But primarily only for very fast weapons.

It doesn’t really outperform Seal of Command, it just ALLOWS the option of using fast 2 handers, which are otherwise useless to everyone.

Edit: That 2 hand sword from Jandace Barov in Scholo is pretty fun with this method, as a starter.

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I’m loving grinding mobs with Brain Hacker (2.10 AS; Fiery Weapon) + Ret aura, BoM/W, JoL, SotC. Swing speed with SotC is 1.26. It’s actually pretty dope. :smile: