It really depends on the situation. In single target, sin is one of if not the best. In m+/aoe it’s one of the better, but it’s not ‘the best’.
Always fun missing the feint before an ability you know hits hard to see your hp go to 5% and just be like “welp. Guess i need to make that BW timer more noticeable”
Sub is capable of more dps when your group isnt gimping your damage. Tanks pulling 4 or less mobs just kills it. Other DPS in the group not doing damage also kills it. If most of the travel/downtime happens while sub is waiting on the SD timer, then itll be top of overall.
It also has the most defensives of all rogue specs til tuesday. Sin just has an easier time getting its damage out and downtime hurts a lot less even if its unable to stealth.
@OP
The biggest change in the past 10 years is the shift to AoE damage and how it’s emphasized in all forms of content. Guess which class was never designed around AoE.
Blizzard has attempted to provide AoE builds for rogues. However, we currently have a convoluted mess of talents that offer no type of synergy within any of the specs.
Then on top of that, Blizzard has decided to design our dps profile around stealth. I can’t even begin to describe how bad this feels.
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oof, big this! When pugging keys I have to link my talents half the time and say, “It’s not just my damage on why I want into stealth. I will silence a whole mob pack and lower their damage by 15% for 8 seconds. Help me, help you.”
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I remember casualaddict keeping up in dps with dk in 14s. Maybe it s a high key lvl thing though. Dk/ret are above everyone else in pug in 10s.
Well to continue that thought all Rogue builds coming out of stealth in PVE and PVP have been single target oriented for the most part.
I do not think BlizZard will ever allow Rogues to have AoE oriented builds coming out of stealth performing at such a high level over a long period of time.
The class needs a spec (looking at you Outlaw) that works on par with how Survival does.
Call it Duellist. You go in, you have 2 shields to pop (25% Damage Reduction on a low cooldown) like Survival/Evoker does. You have a low cooldown, heavy damage button (let’s call it Engagement) like Kill Command. So you’re slicing people up for 400-500k (same as the Kill Command window). If any melee get on you, you have a seperate parry/dodge defensive to activate just for them. If any mages get on you, you have a spellshield that simply replaces Cloak of Shadows. You can still vanish–once. (So you make the choice to either use this offensively or defensively.) And you can still retreat into your backline like Demon Hunter does with Shadow Step/(Vengeful Retreat). When all your cooldowns are gone, you simply step into the backline and you’re back up again in under << a minute.
The only difference between this and Sub and Assassination is:
- You are not squishy. You can actually take a beating.
- You are more like Combat was in Vanilla. Riposte and counter-focused, whatever you’re attacking is shut down and bleeding HP (and uptime).
Right now, Survival Hunter feels like the best iteration of Rogue there currently is. And I say that completely unironically. My Nelf Hunter can stealth with almost 100% uptime, has permanent stationary stealth, and can solo-cap bases/win 1-1 engagements with next to no effort. Why Rogues don’t play like he does is baffling to me, because as a Classic Enjoyer he has more Rogue identity than my actual Rogue. (I have a fully geared Dwarf Assassination Rogue and he sucks to play. I’d unironically rather have Camoflauge on him than Stealth right now because unlike Camoflauge, stealth constantly seems to break.)
Right now Rogues main problem is it doesn’t feel like a sword/melee spec anymore. I actually miss running around as Combat Rogue engaging everything with a pair of cutlasses and feeling like an absolute badass in the field.
11 Likes
Well, that is rogue development team for you. If you do a google search by date you can see a lot of posts both on here and reddit, in the time crackshot was implemented, with people discontent with outlaw relying so much on stealth, both in terms of gameplay and fantasy. What they did? Gave us the middle finger and pushed it to outlaw anyways… now go look at outlaw participation in pvp, in arenas we have more participation than aug evokers only, the bottom of the bottom
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Yeah, due to the fact that they adamantly refuse to listen to or use their official forms of communication, and sit there on Discord chatting with their parasocial buddies on all the things they are doing to farm the praises of the people there, since most of what they do is stroke their ego instead of having any level of discourse over the topic.
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I have no clue if what you said is true or not.
But what I do know is at this point I do not think they are listening to any thourough feedback from any channel.
They will reach out to top PVE players and top PVP players like Pshero and Nahj for some feedback on some changes here and there from what I am told.
But beyond that they are very data centric with their changes.
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Realz specifically, when he’s doing anything to interact with the community at all, is doing so through the Discord. Just last month, he was pretty active for about 2 weeks at the drop of the xpac. Obviously, he’s not the entire design team, but he’s the only contact we get to anyone near the development on the class at this point.
As far as the other bit goes, the discord isn’t very open to negative feedback. They’re pretty quick to remove and ban people that make any amount of negative discourse. It just breeds conversations centered around professing their adoration of every change, no matter how negative.
I was lurking and watching them stroke the dev team’s ego over the ER changes that most of us were unimpressed with during the reveal of those changes. It’s pretty uncomfortable to watch, honestly.
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what he said is not true, theres dicussion about how crackshot is giga oppressive alot and its a recognized problem. the issue is that other capstones are so beans to begin with that nerfing crackshot will be a net negative for the entire spec
if you got banned from a discord where the likes of ****** can run amok without being banned then you are 100% being giga aggressive, argumentative, or straight up saying slurs. if you got banned then its 100 for a actual reason not the cope of victim act your putting on here
literally every outlaw dislikes the er change cause it messes with kirs blp. if your going to lie then lie in a believable way. anyone here can go to the discord ask about the er change and peoples opinions and you’ll have a million people pinging them telling them its dog poo
with only like me telling them its subjective because er was a controversial button to begin with
yall think the discord is hell bent on making crackshot the only build forever? when tc’ers love build options and not being pigeon holed into 1 build all expansion. cause thats wrong and the reason why ho and kir builds being so distinct is liked because its a woopty doopty build option
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How else are you going to improve on a spec when Crackshot literally combines the best aspects of the entire tree into one overpowered talent?
If we ever get meaningful energy regen, the first thing one the chopping block is going to be that exact talent because its stupidly overloaded.
Short answer? Yes.
It’s the only build option because of Crackshot. When there are other builds that don’t involve that blight, then get back to me about ‘distinction’ and all the other obscurantist nonsense you bolt onto this spec.
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you can rebuff optunity, you can make gsw a execute talent, you can make fan the hammer its own capstone
theres alot of ways to make crackshot a option instead of it being oppressive
short answer is no. aloto tc’ers make builds just in case any change makes new builds viable. if you think tc’ers only want one build forever then you are just dentheaded. theres also been feedback posts by said tcers requesting that other capstones be buffed or changed so crackshot isnt the be all end all. your own hate b**** with classcords is getting tiring at this point
imma be honest with you, kir and ho despite both builds using crackshot are extremely different from each other. theres no question.
The only way that’s going to be a thing is if you take something away from it. It’s too strong of a talent, period.
Whatever lands them the most dps.
Give it a break. It’s almost sad at this point watching people fall over themselves defending the travesty that is Crackshot Vanish Dancing.
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I know that BlizZard reaches out to players like Dratnos and Dalaranxd from time to time for feedback too. But Foo, Fiery Demise, DalaranXd have been known to be negative with their feedback regarding some changes from time to time.
If that is true of recent behavior then that has to change to see better steps forward for the class. For example shadowheart leach should not exist because it is so negligible in terms of healing.
All I know is that current BlizZard heavily relies on gathering data to make changes for classes. Rets have the most changes simply because of their sheer population size and large data to work with.
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thats literally their job? sorry they cant make non crackshot builds do more dps. but i can assure you theyre trying. seeing outlaw tcers trying to make gsw work with every patch of relevant changes is honestly kinda silly
when gsw needs to be changed into something new for it to function
That’s not even the point. Their perspectives are skewed into what will get them the maximum amount of DPS in a realm of the game less than 10% of the player base want to see.
If you mention the mere suggestion that Crackshot might have to take a hit, they get ridiculously defensive about it.
No, it just needs more influence from the spec tree. Outside of Crackshot, none of the cap stones actually have as much benefit from the spec tree. Even KiR does not get as much milage from spec specific talents.
As long as it exists in its current form, Crackshot will always be the go too. It’s that pervasive.
You get to five Summarily Dispatched stacks quicker with Crackshot than actually emphasizing Dispatch. You get the fastest CDR. You get the best damage per energy spent. Fatebound was practically created for it.
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Also because of the increased CDR it has lower CD time on Sprint, Grapple, and Feint/Evasion. So Crackshot builds tend to be better defensively and mobility wise. You can test this out in PVP settings as well. Also you build Alacrity stacks quicker too with Crackshot/HO build variations.
Like the other builds are slow to build CPs, and don’t do as much damage burst or sustain and are penalized by pointless energy nerfs. BlizZard needs to try to offer alternative builds.
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