All valid points. Tank should also make sure to pull in a prio target as well within those 7-8 mobs, and allow you to restealth. You gotta trust the group to not use their CC while mobs are silenced else the effect is wasted. Overall theres just different things to pay attention to that the average player simply wont think of and thats why Sin wont perform as well in 20s.
Also gonna note how disingenuous it is to make it seem like im elitist against Sin when im constantly mentioning the changes it needs in order to actually perform well. The spec is like this because the problems shown in Beta were tolerated by rogues focused on other things.
Indiscriminate carnage. should not need to be casted from stealth and should not be a capstone. That would instantly improve sins aoe situation while allowing it to be strong at single target.
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It doesnt require stealth.
I think thats what youre saying?
If you dont, youre putting out weak garrotes. Thats what hes getting at.
Sin also needs EB for aoe and the legion legendary cape effect can return as well. Those 2 were Sins only on demand sources of burst
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Rogues need better utility.
Assassination is not optimal, but it’s not a limiting factor in doing 20s. It’s just that Sub ST is close enough and brings far more consistent AOE/flexibility.
Agreed, some kind of improvement to FoK would be super welcome. I’ve heard warnings about how degen the gameplay could become/has been if we’re just spamming FoK, and that’s real, so I think my preference would actually be to have FoK have better synergy with poisons - or for the entirety of Sin to have better synergy with them, frankly.
At the moment, poisons are frustratingly dodgy in the kit, with some talents landing as superfluous/unneeded +application nodes, some landing as +% damage nodes that nonsensically tear important damage talents away from elsewhere in the tree, and then some, like Amp poison, which seem like thinly veiled attempts to pigeonhole players toward ER. Poison Bomb used to feel like fine +nature synergy but now has that awful fishing minigame that comes from 40% proc rates. The only truly focused poison synergy is DTB, but, as you say, we only have access to a single DoT poison.
An example of how things could be different/better maybe: imagine a situation where the damage crescendo from a new Dreadlord’s-like effect actually results in some kind of multiplicate of poison DoTs when casting FoK after X seconds of downtime.
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short-cd stun, sap, blind, shroud, shadowstep/hook for thundering, cheat death, cloak of shadows, vanish, numbing/atrophic poison, gouge, shiv (enrage dispel), and distract. Like the rogue kit is insane. I’ve been gearing my rogue for the past month and I feel way more impactful to my groups success in m+ than on my devoker (which is my only other geared toon). People know you can 1 combo point kidney/gouge/blind for more interrupts right? Or the fact you can vanish+distract and save your group from that pat that is coming too close to the group? Problem with rogue cc is that you can’t see it because most of it is preventative. How would you know I just saved us from wiping, if you didn’t know we were going to wipe in the first place? I think rogue’s success this season can be attributed to the fact they can survive far easier than most if not all other dps. Vanish/cloak/feint with high mobility and a cheat death if you fail to react on top of all that? sheesh
Also, purely anecdotal, but I have had zero problems pugging. Where as on my devoker, I would have to resort to signing up to groups who need a hero/lust.
Um so to answer the Op’s question: Yes.
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Your biggest claim to fame is your 3 CCs.
Meanwhile every other class has 4 or 5+
Yeah I’d rather pick a better class that offers more group utility in my runs. Especially since many other classes do better dps than Rogues.
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Yes rogues get invited all the time to 20s and it’s not about damage per say, it’s because rogues do have an insane toolkit, but the 3 biggest reason rogue are brought to higher keys is: Survivability, Vanish and damage profile.
Rogues have 4 ways to prevent ourselves from dying: Feint ( 40% AoE dmg reduc), Evasion (100% dodge chance), Cloak of Shadows (100% magic immunity) and cheat death.
Rogue’s Damage profile is insanely good. We are good at single target when talented into AoE and vise versa. We are THE best funnel dps in the game. Now I am speaking from Sub perspective.
Our damage profile won’t show on the meters but it will be reflected on the dungeon timer which is more important.
I saved the best for last because Vanish is the best cool down in the game. It can quite literally cancel some of the most dangerous boss mechanics in the game right now.
NO: The spear throw on the last boss, vanish stops the cast
HoV: Vanish Stops the bleed build up on Fenryr. Vanish cancels Felblaze Rush on God-King
AV: Vanish stops Icy Devastator on Greywing, while the mechanic is not dangerous, it allows for more dps uptime on the boss so the key gets done faster.
CoS: First boss room, the rogue can vanish and knock out all of the pillars and do the phial while the group is clearing the first trash pack, which that is actually a 3 min time save.
The biggest issue with rogues is not so much the class itself, the class is in a great spot and will be a very strong option for the whole Xpac, the issue is the rogue has the largest skill gap of good players vs bad. Always has and always will.
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maybe when you level up to 70 and get out of normal dungeons you will have a different experience
418 ilevel
2600+ io
AOTC
Still get rejected from 14 out of 15 groups.
Takes about 30-40 minutes to find a 20+ group that will accept a Rogue.
Fact is, Rogues are pretty much one of the worst classes to bring to a M+ pug.
I had a hell of a time getting into 20+ mythics until I got my IO past 2700. Now it seems pretty quick. Yeah, we don’t bring lust to the group but we have a reputation for high AoE dps output so I think a lot of groups will take us just for that
418ilvl
2750io…I get invited often, but heres a few tips :
Grab ‘‘Premade group filters’’ (Class shows up with the addon)
You will quickly understand why more then 80% of the time you are not taken
All groups with one dps spot left :
Rogue in group alrdy = no invite.
No lust yet = No rogue invite
No brez in group = no rogue invite
No range in group = No rogue invite
Another player in Q with higher io = No invite
Number of +20 timed weights a LOT in the balance nowaday (I carried so many ppl in 20’s nowaday that I do see value in ppl who timed 30+ 20’s) 3-4 +20 keys in time wont make the cut v.s. a player who has 30+ done in time.
Theres your 80% of the time not getting an invite…probly even 95% of the reason.
Piece of advice on how I managed to run a lot of 20’s :
I ran my own keys and carefully choosed high io AND experienced players (high amount of dungeons timed)
I was patient.
Ive done it over…and over…and over…again and again…
Keep up the good work, pump your io above 2700(soon 2800) and youl probably get invited quickly from that point on.
Best of luck mate 
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i made it to 4/8 20s but got fed up with taking ~an hour to find a group so i burnt out and play other games lol
*damn 8 days. smoll necro heh
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Much easier to get invites on my 2400IO Rogue than this 2700IO Hunter.
This is all very true. After I passed the 2900 IO and I got 60+ level 20 timed runs I pretty much get invited into every group I apply to but back in the early days I basically never got into anything and was forced to run my own keys