Archiving some Outlaw/Rogue ideas/changes/additions

[Grimzalo-grizzly-hills]

Welcome! Placing this here for git and shiggles. I’ll link to active stuff and a quote or two. If and when active stuff gets deleted or shut down; I’ll return here to copy-and-paste “quotes” in plain text. Feel free to liking/praising/sharing the love on this post and going to linked posts and liking/sharing the love on those as well, Or you can express your disapproval or discontent here if you want.

This post will be edit heavy and also keep in mind said changes are just for the class and specs in general, I despise a forced design and balancing revolving around one aspect of the game.

Thanks! Have a great day! [WARNING: Super long post]

Links: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/feedback-rogues/1666450/234
Roll The Bones Alt change: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/feedback-rogues/1666450/485
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Quote(s):

@Grimzalo-grizzly-hills

So far with my time on the PTR to test the Rogue specs, I liked some of the changes and not so much for others, I liked the changes for Sub having reserve CPs, Assassin’s new 35% execution talent which is a really cool addition! And Outlaw’s Underhanded Upper Hand’s extension of three buffs of SnD, BF and AR. Which on the PTR I had both Assassin and Sub rip me apart in a duel within seconds! (And I loved seeing it in action.) And understandable that those two specs will have some down sides with the odd ball/dead talents.

But I have a dreaded feeling for Outlaw. Due to a couple patches as of recent and few times in past. Outlaw is going to be ignored, underwhelming/underpreforming and in the same position as Assassination. Which Outlaw is going to be copying/pasting from Subtlety. I loved the Outlaw Spec in Legion and what it had but now I see it nothing more than Dual-wield-1-Handed-Swinging-Pistol-Firing-Dice-Rolling-Gambling-“Brigand” that relies on Shadow Dance to get it’s copy/paste kit of ambush/dispatch & BtE spam (which I understand that SD is core to Rogue in general, But it’s getting to the point where the specs may/are going to slowly copying and losing their identities.)

But an example in Sub’s case, Shadow Blades now has the same effect that Dreadblades but all upsides. Where-in Dreadblades now kills you faster and paired with Killing Spree is outright suicide unless fixed with Cloak of Shadows. (and I understand that the effects were either intended in one way or another by accident.)

Which I don’t have a problem with two spells having the same effects cause it makes it where you can transition from one spec to another and still play it well but it renders one inferior cause DB lasts half as long and you can die from it.

My Feedback for Outlaw:

In this thread of posts there are quite a few ideas that I saw for Outlaw. couple examples here v:

@Soupspoon-terenas

I would love to see a more parry-based theme for Outlaw; perhaps Evasion turns into Parry, or our mastery buffs our parry. Just so much more thematic than dodge for Outlaw, imo

@Haunt-malfurion

Leave Stealth and Vanish gameplay to Subtlety and Assassination, make the left side of the Outlaw tree into saber slashing, riposting, parrying, en garde, “…you killed my father…” Have Ambush modify/transform into a non-stealth dependent “Lunge” 10y gap closer attack, midway down the left side of the tree. Leave the middle of the tree mostly like it is now with RtB and Adrenaline Rush buffs, and make the right side more about blasting guns. Move Crackshot to PvP talent.

The quoted ideas above would work great by reshaping the Outlaw into a Duelist-Pirate that still befits the spec’s name. And which in a post of mine on the Rogue’s Forum is something I had in mind a kin to Outlaw.

So here’s some ideas for changes
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• Give our mastery a secondary effect to have a chance based on mastery to parry away damage or reflect/deflect a bit of incoming damage back with the chance to strike with our off-hand. (Soupspoon inspired idea)
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• Blade Flurry. Remove the target cap and have it where it hits 5 - 10 targets for 100% damage and does reduced damage to all other targets. And perhaps have it where it gives 10% - 15% to parry/reflect(deflect) damage whilst active and talent choice to boost it off mastery. (it would pair well with Underhanded Upper Hand.)
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• Dreadblades. It should do some form lifesteal as seeing we are “feeding” said “Dreadblades” by attacking an opponent(s), I’d also have it where does 10% - 15% Increased damage to the primary target and 3% - 5% to all remaining targets if Blade Flurry active and bump the duration to match that of Shadow Blade’s 20 secs.
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• Slice and Dice would be better as a passive like Audacity in where as when you do a finisher it applies the buff based on the amount of CPs used. (This would apply for all the specs.)
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• Roll the Bones, Due to the split amongst the Rogue Community of wanting to throwing it out and the other side wanting to keep it, I’d have it where it’s kept in for the sake of spec fantasy but have it where doesn’t majorly impact your damage rotation due a bad roll or etc. Make it buff minor stuff like slight increase to stats, increase chance to proc mastery, slight increase to attack speed with SnD and etc. [Second Idea as of 9/15/23: Feedback: Rogues - #485 by Grimzalo-grizzly-hills ]
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• Killing Spree. Knocked it out of ball-park, Perfect as is and shouldn’t need to be touched.
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• Adrenaline Rush. Add one additional effect. While Adrenaline Rush is active, you can use Stealth abilities outside of stealth or have Improved Adrenaline Rush grant that effect. It would keep those who want stealth in Outlaw happy.
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• Ambush. I’d have it change to Gap closing ability a kin to a lunge (Haunt’s idea), To give us Outlaws a form of chase with the slippery targets encase Sprint and Grappling Hook is down. and just my addition to it: If you lunge to a target and some random enemy is in between the distance they take slight grazing damage.
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  As a QoL thing have it where Sinister Strike changes out with Ambush when you’re able to use it to clear out button bloat/clutter.

My two cents, I would add Death From Above to Outlaw as a talent and keep it a PvP talent for other two specs: The addition to DFA it would be buffed to do an 50% empowered Envenom/Dispatch/Eviscerate which for Assassin: Makes the target take more damage from poisons and bleeds for 10 sec. Outlaw: Run the target Through and they take more damage (if Blade Flurry is active it’s a 25% damage reduction for all additional nearby targets) Subtlety: Applies Find Weakness and increased shadow damage.

As for stealth and for regarding Shadow Dance, As for me, I see it having no fantasy within Outlaw. Once you hit the level for a spec, You’re choosing your class style and fantasy at that point. Vanish is exceptional cause of the fact it acts as a reset for a bad engage or to save you at a moment’s notice.

This segment is where I get uncivil/unruly and passionate about the Rogue and it’s specs.

If this trend of where we keep stealth-based abilities going for Outlaw, It’ll keep being shoe-horned in and Outlaw will keep on losing this so called “Identity” and will become a secondary Subtlety or Assassination. Which at that point: Remove Outlaw as a spec, Leave it as a two spec class that can use daggers and one handed weapons and start a new Pirate class.

If you wanted a Stealth-based, In-and-Out Sneaky fighting Pick Subtlety, it exists for a reason.
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If you wanted a Heavy DoT Dealing in the form of Poisons & Bleeds kind of battle Pick Assassination
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If you wanted a Ruthless fugitive that uses agility and guile to stand toe-to-toe with their enemy. key phrase: To stand toe-to-toe, Which means to Slash, Gash, Bash and Cleave (and if parrying/reflecting being a part of the Outlaws spec.) in a Agile manner whilst using “Cunning” to get an dirty upper-hand which Vanish/Blind/Gouge is good enough to achieve desired effect. Which if it has to be changed to a Duelist-esque Pirate theme and fantasy, So be it. You Pick Outlaw.

Closing thoughts:

I understand it doesn’t have to be a Warrior-In-Leather, But come on. We didn’t ask to be tank-y and beefy like a Warrior: We’ll still die at the same rate as any other leather wearing class. Me and others just ask be able to stand our grounds without the need of Shadow Dance to which that can stay shared between Assassin and Sub, Outlaw kept of it or at least have a talent where SD is shoved into AR. The walls of difference of the specs are starting to get somewhat thin and a bit transparent to the point where you can see through said “wall” and see similarities of the specs where none of them will have a difference. And to keep playing it off as “design” is fool-hardy. You say keep Outlaw as a partial stealth-based-pistol-firing-dual-wielding-1Handed-Flailing-RNG Influenced-No Identity outside of “Wants-to-be-Pirate” theme and fantasy spec. I say give it more of a form of a Duelist-esque Pirate style and fantasy like other people are thinking and wishing for. At the end of day: You’re entitled to your opinion and as am I.

Ideas/Additions/Comebacks:

• Smoke Bomb [All Specs]: Return as an baseline ability for Rogue. Obfuscates target’s vision, Preventing them from targeting in or out if in the cloud and allows stealth based abilities while inside the cloud.
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• Recuperate/Recuperator[Rogue]: Turn Recuperator into a choice talent for healing over of SnD/Old school Recuperate, heal over time for CP spender/dump.
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• Disarm/Detect Trap [Rogue passive]: Return that to give us upper hand against Hunters again and liven the class fantasy back up again, Even if not useful out in the overworld/raids/dungeons and Etc.
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• Sprint On-water [Class Glyph]: A glyph for the class like the Sprint: Burnout glyph.
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• Poisons: Remove the hourly duration and just have it as be like an aura like paladins and fix the leeching poison bug going around.
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• Pickpocket: Revitalize the skill by either raising the amount of money pickpocketed from mobs or add some more items to fence to Griftah, It starting to feel like a ghost of it’s former self.
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• Blind: Revert back to a minute cooldown.
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• Run Through [Outlaw Ability]: A Finisher that punctures right through the enemy’s armor. Applying a debuff where target receives 5%-15% increased damage taken from all sources and if another outlaw applies the debuff on the same target, It refreshes the duration by 1-3 seconds.
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• Helter Skelter [Outlaw Talent]: Fire a conical blast from your pistol. 1st Iteration: Incapacitate the all targets within the cone for 2 secs. Replaces Gouge.
  2nd Iteration: Firing shrapnel into your all targets within the cone, Causing them to bleed for 6-12 seconds. [Fellow Rogue Soupspoon’s idea to me.]
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• In-Depth Roll the Bones Debuffs to enemies [If changed]: Debuff 1: Reduced damage dealt/Increase damage taken, Debuff 2: Reduced movement speed, Debuff 3: Unable to land Critical hits, Debuff 4: Increase chance to miss (Unless they strike you or team-mates from behind), Debuff 5: Increased chance to be parried/reflected/deflected (Boosts Outlaw’s secondary mastery effect and applies to all other friendly team-mates) and Debuff 6: Occasional Interrupts/Silences.
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I’ll add more as I go and I’ll try my best to not leave the other two specs behind, Outlaw is so easy to add stuff to it cause to me it doesn’t really have anything unique besides fast slashing and two pistol actions, It also lacks an “Identity”.