Arcane damage?

Just trying to knock out a few campaign missions on my newly leveled mage and it’s taking like 4 or 5 fully charged arcane blasts to take out non-elite mobs?

Like 2k damage per 4 charges, yet I’m pretty sure I was doing that kind of damage with the same item level or lower (140) with my prot paladin’s judgments?

Why is arcane damage so low? A druid’s starsurge does that much damage baseline?

I decided to switch to fire and try it out and it wasn’t too much better, then tried frost and I’m killing things in like a third the time that I would as Arcane. Maybe it gets significantly better at higher item levels but in general I feel like I’m really struggling to survive as arcane without constant slows and I have no damage to compensate…

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If I’m questing or something, I only really hard cast arcane blasts on elite mobs. For non-elites just tag them all with an orb and barrage to aoe slow, then kite with explosions for charges and re-barrage. You’ll want to take the chrono shift talent, it slows mobs you hit with barrage by 50% and gives you a 50% sprint.

Yes this is correct and functioning as intended. Arcane Blast is not supposed to be your main damage spell, its used to A) Generate Arcane Charges and B) Try to proc clearcasting.

Clearcasting arcane missiles is your primary damage dealing spell. Everything you do as arc, you do it to get clearcasting.

It feels like clearcasting very rarely procs though?

Less than instant Pyros and definitely less than Brain Freeze and the empowered ice lance procs that are instant cast and do twice as much damage?

But I guess that makes sense, the person above. It did feel like I might have been a little more effective running around arcane explosioning mobs and barraging them.

Feels pretty weird though . Maybe if there was a talent to gain another proc that let you cast arcane barrages as if it has 4 charges without losing any?

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Supplepaws rests a paw on your shoulder and nods very slowly, smiling as supportively as he can

…yes, it does feel very hard to get clearcasting doesn’t it. Welcome to arcane my friend.

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From my math based on my own stats.
Casting Arcane Blast from 3stack+ > Damage than base Missile damage.
Spam Casting x4 charge Arcane Blast > output than Base Missle.
Clearcasting both with and without Amplification talent > x4 Arcane Blast.

So basically if you are below 3 stacks of arcane charges, Hard Casting missles > Blast for damage.
3 arcane charges+ Arcane Blast > Missles
Clearcasting proc Missles > Blast

Gear helps.

My 4-stack arcane blasts against the dummy with just arcane intellect up hit for 3600-4400. Crits are in the 7k-8k range. They hit substantially harder than frostbolt or fireball when I’m in those specs and kill single-targets fairly fast.

For PVE, I also disagree with prior posters who say arcane blast isn’t your main attack. That’s incorrect in my opinion.

  • As arcane, your main attack against PVE single-targets IS arcane blast.
  • Unlike frost or fire who have more frequent procs, arcane blast’s main purpose is not that of a proc generator.
    • Clearcasts are very rare and cannot be counted upon.
    • Arcane Blast hits a lot harder than frostbolt or fireball.
  • Arcane Explosion mixed with barrages is the AOE rotation. It’s fun and effective… but most of the time it is quite inferior to arcane blast for single-target situations.

One other note for the original poster: Arcane DOES have a reliable single-target snare. It’s called “Slow”. If you’re having trouble killing single-targets fast enough cast Slow on them at max range and then attack with damage spells.

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I was actually coming here to post a related question.

Namely, is it actually low still?

I was looking at warcraftlogs in normal 50% percentile (I always use 50% percentile to get the ‘average bulk of players’ and weed out the exceptions) and then in mythic 50% percentile.

In normal Arcane is way down there at the bottom. In mythic it’s #11 as a solid middle.

I am wondering if I am seeing the results of ‘better gear’ opening up the spec, or the different nature of pulls in Mythic?

My mage is level 20… because I rerolled it this expac to get the nightborne heritage but it’s down the list on alts to level… and I like Arcane, so I’m starting to examine if it will ever be ‘viable’ this expac.

Arcane damage is not low. M+ demonstrates that readily.

It’s just heavily disrupted my movement requirements. Nathria has a lot of those.

Skilled players can mitigate those movement requirements. This is why Mythic rankings have it more in the middle. Most players do not know how to respond to movement mechanics efficiently. That’s why it’s lower in Normal/Heroic.

TO THEIR CREDIT however, Arcane lost Displacement. So we no longer have reactive mobility outside of basic Blink usage. Now it has to be preemptive between Alter Time and banking CC for missiles if you run Slipstream (which you should).

If they were to give us back Displacement via Master of Time or give us Sliptream baseline, we could get an alternative reactive option to choose like Shimmer or some new talent.

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Displacement won’t help Nathria, especially against Denathrius where as soon as phase 2 starts it feels like you have to make constant micro movements or die (literally in the case of massacre).

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Yes and no… there’s fewer than 50 Arcane parses in Mythic once you get past Sun King . Comparitively there are 6,600 Fire parses. Sludgefist has literally 1 parse, which places Arcane at the top but heavily skewes average numbers. Those sticking with Arcane in Mythic are likely going to be the better end of players who can make it work, however the data is extremely unreliable due to very low numbers and cannot realistically be used.

Heroic at 90th percentile is going to give you a much better idea of Arcane’s potential for all bosses and not just the first 4 and will still be populated by good players. At that level of play/difficulty there’s a 25% gap between Arcane and the top 5 dps…

There is literally not enough data to say that Arcane is ‘fine’ because the Mythic rankings are so horribly affected by one-sidedness of specs played that statistically it’s a write-off. The other content, at all ilvl and skill level has Arcane quite low with sufficient information to back it up.

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To those still following, for open world I’ve just been using Frost because I can cast Frostbolt and have easy snares combined with damage. 4k ice lances, and brain freeze procs way more often than Clearcasting does in Arcane.

I always did decent damage in Arcane but that’s mixing in cooldowns like Touch of the Magi, arcane power, etc.

For just open world questing it just felt like I was trading a lot of sustain for subpar damage. It does seem like it’s gone up a little with better gear so this may just be one of those specs that is noticeably stronger the higher gear you get. Where as Frost may SEEM better right now with a curve that kind of flattens out.

It’s still a little strange how seemingly every other frostbolt triggers the abilities that boost ice lance or make the other ability instant cast, where as Arcane I feel’s like a slot machine with maybe 1 proc per mob if I’m lucky. Granted when it procs it can do the majority of a mob’s health, but the unreliability of it makes it more of a… don’t pull than one mob at a time or you’re going to have to invis and reset type of playstyle.

Switching to Rune of Power instead of Incanter’s flow does help a bit though. I just have a bad habit of trying to choose as many passives as possible with traits.

The conversation just bounces with each post. Some saying, arcs dmg is low, then its high, then its just this particular fight, no its that one, its just this scenario, no no its that scenario.

The overall theme we cannot avoid is that arcs problem is consistency.

Can we talk about synergy for a sec? I’m just curious what you guys think about mage synergy. Remove all the mages burst cds and run a sim in your head. Fire wants crits and NEEDS crits in order to start a burst. Frost wants frozen targets (or procs that simulate it). Arc wants clearcasting.

Which of the 3 has a burst cd that cheats the mechanic into working for them? Which 2 specs do not have a burst cd that forces the mechanic to work for them?

What if they updated it so that icy veins treated all targets as frozen or AP would generate clearcasts with every spell cast? Would that be OP and why? And why isn’t it OP for fire in that context.

what if you could switch it around just to run a few tests. For example: Starting tuesday combustion now allows fireballs to be cast while moving and are uninterruptible (an equivalent exchange). Icy veins now treats all targets as if they are frozen for the duration. AP remains the same. How would that work out? Would people call it OP? Why? Do the same for AP for one week (100% clearcast procs). Op? Why?

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I liked your other suggestion about Arcane but in general I think it feels pretty lackluster and definitely inconsistent.

What if having 4 arcane charges increases the chance of proc’ing clearcasting?

Even at that, people wouldn’t really have as much incentive to spend their charges, so I guess that wouldn’t work.

I don’t know that I have any great suggestions but it seems like they could have came up with something. I mean, affliction and shadow priests went from being dot-centric classes to now having high damaging abilities in addition to their dots.

Honestly, I feel like if you look at dps in general it seems like the ones that do the highest dps are the hybrid condition/damage specs like Balance that has multiple dots plus burst spells, fire mage, burning + burst spells, affliction - dots + burst spells.

Where as Arcane has no consistent damage source. I’m not saying I won’t Arcane to have a damage over time trait because I think it’s kind of cheap that so many classes have that kind of baked in now but it seems like Arcane and Frost are kind of suffering because they don’t really have that passive damage.

There are a lot of ideas you could do to make having 4 arc charges more useful, but then you’d have to incentivize spending them. Chaos bolt is a good comparison, it does incredible damage. On its own, people might say its overpowered, but everyone will agree that the resource cost of chaos bolt is fair. “at least they have a limitation to such power” this is the theme.

All combo point systems, resource gains in general like insanity, holy power, runes, astral power, focus, rage etc ALL function on a similar model. You have abilities that deal a lot of damage, but are limited to resource gain and spent from resource gain. This gives the combat ebb and flow which is essential for a fair pvp experience. If someone can kill you at the start of the battle its less fun, so ebb and flow mechanics slow down the pace of a game and add predictable fluctuations in combat. Predicable is a key word, because countering requires you to understand a classes resource mechanics in order to combat them effectively. You want to avoid an spriest at full insanity in death angel mode, but be more aggressive if they’re low on insanity, etc.

Arc mages were initially designed to fit the very same model. You accrued charges, did devastating damage and barrage was a high damage finisher. Due to some mechanical error, it was just not appropriate to drop barrage because spamming ab and other spells were more effective, and this mechanic has been tweaked over and over through the expansions with extra barrage dmg on low health targets, extra/reduced AB cost, quicker/slower cast times, cleave damage, etc. For whatever reason, they just gave up on it I guess?

The problem therefore seems to be elusive. I have a hunch it has to do with spells. We don’t have enough spells to cast. How many different abilities can a warlock choose to spend his soul shards on? How many different spells can a warrior use with rage? How many spells can a paladin use with holy power? These all tie into spell versatility - one spell is for cleave, one is for cc, one is for survival, one is for evasion, one is for self healing, etc etc etc. We don’t have many options for charges. Its just… barrage. Now, you have the boost in spell damage from high charges, but this is trivial at best. With 20% mastery you’ll be doing 9% extra spell damage with AB. This is the difference between a 2200 arcane blast or a 2400 arcane blast approximately. Not really worthwhile. Oh and what about mastery helping your finisher or incentivizing barrage? Not working, since mastery is drastically reduced with barrage… it increases your barrage damage by 4%. This borders on pathetic. The highest benefit of mastery is that missiles is boosted by 15% as well as “all other arcane spells”. Please let me know what this is talking about, because I haven’t the foggiest idea. Once again, very few spells for us to spend arc charges… I guess arc explosion? But who on earth counts arc explosion into their damage rotation.

But getting back to the ebb and flow mechanic, we seriously don’t have it. Instead we have a totally unique ebb and flow mechanic that functions “internally” to arc mages which is our mana. This can be considered a good thing, you control your own power, be it extra weak or extra strong. But do we really? Because I forgot to mention, proc generation is also tied into our ebb and flow. This gives us a totally unique dual-layered ebb and flow system, which by all accounts is a complete and total failure. I want you to take another class, any other class, say a warlock for example and tell them that from now on, chaos bolt can only be cast if they have a proc. And then use soul shards to control how much damage it does. The warlocks would completely flip out. They would despise such a change… they want to generate soul shards and spend them on their spell, why would they want to rely on RNG permitting them to use the resources that they’re working to build up! Its redonkulous. The dual layered ebb and flow system presents a problem because even if you DO gather up arc charges, you might not always be able to spend them when you want and this is a problem.

The rng system creates its own set of problems, as if there weren’t enough of them already. It gives the lotto winners such a hit of dopamine that they get caught under the illusion that the system is good, while the people who consistently lose the lottery recognize that its bad. That’s why some arc mages are like “oh yea clearcast procs just fine I get them all the time! Its awesome” and other mages are like, um no its not. Its like trying to convince your 45 year old uncle who’s been gambling since he was 15 why gambling is bad, but he says “yea but remember that time I hit the pick 4 and won like $5,000! Its totally worth it!” The same kinda situation is happening with the loot system and why no one can agree that the loot system is good or bad.

If arc were redesigned across the board to have a proper ebb and flow system, then they could boost the damage of our finishers and we’d have proper burst, even outside of cds. The extra damage would be fair because it would cost arc charges. Also, our burst cd, arcane power, should not just give us raw power but boost our mechanics for us (just like fire does) and boost clearcast generation. Its interesting to think about it, but at one point, arcane DID have a mechanic to boost its mechanics. It was PoM. Using pom gave you instant arc charges which tied into our whole mechanic playstyle. But since arc charges usefulness has been ‘watered down’, pom has become one of our weaker cd’s, just 2 instant arcane blasts and nothing more. On a tier of spell priority - every other spell in our whole spellbook is more useful than pom. Remember when it affected all spells? Instant polymorph was pretty useful. As we sit right now, our spell kit does not entirely fit our function or mechanics. No spell you cast actually provides you with a significant benefit, theres no ramp up besides clearcasting and theres no synergy between abilities benefiting other abilities. We have not evolved into this new mobility era with everyone else. Arc is in a weird, weird place right now.

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Actually love this idea. During Arcane Power, your first 3 arcane blasts trigger clearcasting. Would go a long way to making our cooldowns feel less like a slot machine. Nothing worse than CC fishing and using your whole mana bar because of RNG.

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if they got rid of clear casting and made arcane blast instant cast to build up charges. they should just have missiles consume said charges. the more charges you have the faster and harder missiles hit. arcane barrage can be our cleave. Before ppl say Arcane blast should not be instant cast, I say this. Why is fire blast instant cast? It’s a blast spell. It would definitely tie into mana management etc.

This is a good idea. Clearcasting could then instead be treated as: You can cast 1 charge of arcane missiles with full power, does not consume charges. But arc charges would have to be tuned accordingly, very low damage with low charges, very high with high charges.

I dont like the idea of arcane damage being funneled into clearcasting.

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I think it’s more nuanced and situational. Conduits and legendary are certainly a factor in addition to a high mastery build vs other builds. I run the execute legendary dumping charges frequently and I use missiles a lot in addition to charged AB in live keys or raid situations when short windows open, you are unlike to be charged up. On execute you need to fill your GCD window and arcane explosion or missiles at range is the way to go. I used Arcane explosion on movement to generate clear casting if none are ready. Barrage being my number 1 damage, then AB, missiles and AE all around the same output.