To be fair, orc clans have widely different cultures, combined with individual philosophies. But yes I agree that blizzard failed the orcs.
5 Likes
Look on the bright side, it has gotten Blizzard to self-reflect on what they put out.
I am kind of bothered by the fact that the optics of the blonde white elf is teaching the blue Jamaican I mean Darkspear troll how to read and write Orcish is getting all the media attention. But its still attention.
My only worry now is that they are going to fix these couple of bad optics and we will still have the total tone deaf story where Zekhan is bewildered why Night Elves are mad and somehow post-BFA Kalimdor is still in Cataclysm’s timeline according to the chief lore historian at blizzard.
12 Likes
The watchtower scene is a simple dark-night-of-the-soul scene. They’re supposed to have the “hero” of the scene doubting in their abilities and goodness; and not believing there is a way. It’s just a character thing, not the outlay of the core ending concept.
The “for Azeroth” coming out of it is merely the continuance of the “hope/no-hope” plot-line we still have limping along with us.
That’s the whole point of the scene type. The hero rising to the hour after their self-reflection.
The final cinematic for Saurfang has another clear line, later than the one I quoted already:
You just keep failing. The Horde will endure! The Horde is strong!
The Horde has a past and a now, the past is not the now. Saurfang’s honor arc had a lot of spots where it needed work to make it more than plot.
Saurfang’s arc ended with him embracing the Horde for its future, the “hope” side of that arc. His dying to stop Sylvanas preserved the people of the Horde, the thing which is actually The Horde.
That preservation of the Horde was to fight for Azeroth.
There were plenty of openings in the story for this to bring out what honor is to Orcs, a rediscovery of it from before the demon blood. Those didn’t happen.
Baalsamael is correct that we don’t need evil Horde for conflict, there’s no way adding off-world races doesn’t cause resource pressure - and thus conflict.
Think I’ve been saying that!
As you may remember, there were a few versions of what Anduin says to Saurfang when he is captured. I haven’t done the scenario in a while, so I don’t remember what they finally went with, but one PTR version that I remember being discussed had the scene ending with Anduin saying something like “Come, we will talk of honor and how it may be regained.” Which sure as heck sounds like he’s schooling Saurfang on the meaning of honor.
Why would they want to do that in the context of a two-faction game, though? Why would they set up one faction to be right and the other wrong, but tell the players both are right in their own ways? In what sense is this a smart decision likely to lead to customer satisfaction and increased revenue?
15 Likes
Thats not what I said at all. Without hitting anyone on the head with it, Ive been differentiating between the horde as a faction (with a stupid name) and the horde as an institution.
When it comes to the philosophy that drives them and the choices made by the player, there is no meaningful distinction. At the time of character creation, the player places a character in the Horde faction and also in the Horde institution.
If the devs wanted to explore the idea of a player character working for an institution that is fundamentally wrong, why would they try to hide this fact from the players?
4 Likes
Yeah. I formulate it as “who is the movant party”. And it’s Anduin.
Since Anduin isn’t using the approach of finding out what honor is to Saurfang, that leaves us at Anduin using his own honor, human honor, as the metric.
If human honor is the metric being used, then we aren’t talking about Saurfang’s honor anymore.
2 Likes
Or maybe “honor” has a common component that is suppose to trancend race.
1 Like
Every culture has a very different idea on what’s considered honorable and what’s not. Point being we don’t know what orcish honor entails.
8 Likes
The assumption is killing defenseless women and children is a near basic definition is implicitly something both faction agree on.
Devs and writers are two different things. Writers telling a story about something in the universe of WoW with parallels to our real world does not require the developers to inform the player at character creation.
And just because Saurfang came to the conclusion that the horde is an example of institutional crap-ism, doesn’t mean it is. It doesn’t mean the player agrees. That was Saurfang’s truth. Even so, that story is over. The only reason to revisit that story now would be to showcase how Saurfang was wrong, or how the Alliance is the same, because the overarching theme of WoW was that neither side can be the good guy in war.
The only orc who EVER voiced regret about killing women and children was saurfang though
4 Likes
Drek’thar also voices regret for unspecified crimes, and refuses to help the Forsaken due to it.
4 Likes
I forgot about that quest line actually. Been ages since I did it
2 Likes
/sarc
And lo, The Light sendeth it’s Golden-Son, Anduin the Magnificent; Great Keeper of the Truths and Good; Conscience of the Universe; to guide the savage into Honorable Justice and free him from his bestial shackles.
/sarc off
Can we not?
10 Likes
“Honor” means adherence to what is right, or an accepted code of conduct, according to the second definition on Google. I don’t think the writers are going for moral relativism. Having a different moral opinion is no excuse for genocidal rampages. For the Orcs, it was due to demonic corruption, but the WoD shows that it could have happened anyway. One race’s “honor” is protrayed as just wrong. That’s not how it should be.
5 Likes
WoW has long been a social commentary on the senselessness and futility of war. On the morally grey aspects of a world defined by war. In that context, “honor” is something else.
“Honor” could also mean respect or to show someone respect, such as how it’s used in the Commandment “Honor Thy Father and Mother.” That definition doesn’t show match up at all. They’re clearly talking about morality. The Horde lost its honor, according to Saurfang, due to the atrocities they committed. Equivocation is a nasty beast.
I shall honor my enemies! Kills a child
11 Likes
Yes… but they also didnt. Saurfang was grappling with that concept. And by the biblical definition as cited, Sylvanas showered Saurfang with honors the entire campaign as presented in AGW. Saurfang was elated and believed his campaign on Darkshore to be the epitome of Orcish Honor… until he threw his axe at the back of an enemy he had already been defeated by in a duel. But lets explore you biblical example once more.
We could also look at Paul’s “Wives, honor your husbands” which is in contrast to “Husbands, love your wives.” The hebrew people were a serious warrior cult. It should not be surprising that the concept of bringing honor to someone else (making them look good) seeped its way into hebrew home life. This honor does not mean simply to be respectful, though that is required of a subordinate to his/her superiors. This honor means to live and act in such a way as to make others view your parents or husband with increased esteem.