April Copeland's reponse to the new Kalimdor book

Yes. Which is, effectively, a root of my complaint.
Honor ends up presented as just words; a generic invocation which either commands someone to do something “just because”, or excuses something “just because”. So WoW presents Horde honor as an excuse, which is insulting.

At its root honor should be, for something like the Horde, a code of conduct. Effectively a feedback loop morality: Act honorably and be held by the group as honorable. With the obverse consequences being fairly clear.

That way it ends up following the model of honor as restraining of action; a tempering of action. (Which would also help explain why corrupting the Orcs was a thing, have to get past that tempering.)

The Alliance also uses honor concepts, even invoking the word honor - though not as frequently as the Horde; however Alliance Honor isn’t a rhetorical club about the evils of the whole group.
The arc leaves us with little course but the idea that Saurfang needed a human prince to understand honor.

That’s what it is at the time in question. :slight_smile:

That’s the past for where this happened in the story.

That past, of a “horrifying sea of greenskins”, isn’t even an objective point now; it’s “perspective” from the first war, from the humans.

The very background of the Orc just isn’t that for where the story is now:

The orcs once lived as shamanic clans on the lush world of Draenor. Corrupted by Kil’jaeden, a demon lord of the Burning Legion, they invaded the world of Azeroth. Eventually able to free themselves from demonic influences, the orcs settled on Kalimdor, erecting their great capital Orgrimmar—from where they fight to find their place in the world they once came to conquer.

Chronicles doesn’t make the Orc just a murderous savage. And here we have the Corruption, which they broke free from. Which is now modified by Zovaal being in the story also.

Making the different culture and its customs, evolved in a different place, something that is always on the knife’s edge of murder and bestiality, is making it just evil. It is saying its nature is ill.
That isn’t the sell for the Horde.

Nor does it make any sense with Saurfang deciding that dueling Sylvanas was an answer.

As it was, honor was plot, I still don’t see an arc-wide resolution.

If they had gone with Mueh’zala using him at Darkshore, then, based on events he can decide Sylvanas must be stopped. That would have reinforced the manipulation cycle they’re depending on with Zovaal.

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But that IS the background of the Horde. Thats what a horde is and why it shouldnt exist (in the opened eyes of Saurfang). The role of the warchief is well suited to Sylvanas, despite the racism of some Orcs (like Saurfang) and Saurfang realized that despite his previous complaint that Sylvanas’ Horde wasn’t his Horde, it is the same Horde it has always been and Sylvanas is the logical inheritor of said Horde. The Spiritual successor of Blackhand.

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The Horde keeps running away from it’s history instead of finding empowerment in it. Until it embraces both history and progress it’s going to be stuck in this middle ground where we can’t even define the Horde.

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Its not easy to face the past, especcialy if the past is full of innocent blood…right and left, and you face hatred because of it…a lot of hatred from multiple sources.

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Until the writers recognize that narrative option, you mean :skull:

Remember that according to Copeland and Golden, to be unapologetically Orcish is to be a problem and Orcishness must be checked with Non-Orc culture or else bad things happen.

As such Orcs qua Orcs will never be able to progress internally on their own, in their minds

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What?

Those who defend Orgrimmar are Horde as well. Our brothers and sisters. -Saurfang

That simply isn’t saying that. He dies to chase off Sylvanas, then the Horde sets up a council. The Horde doesn’t cease to exist.

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You clearly missed the point of the lesser cinematics leading up to Mok’gora. You clearly missed the point of “For Azeroth.”

And that is because orcish culture thrived in a world that was constantly trying to KILL them. Just like the trolls(and I am talking about the trolls expansionist desires, which the Vol’jin book specifically mentioned is no longer viable in a post Sundering World), said culture cannot exist in current day Azeroth because it is a world they have to share with others so you either change or become a problem that needs to be dealt with by other races.

Holy Maw, is this thread still going on?

The horde stopped being the horde the moment they settled Durotar. They are no longer a singular minded war machine. They became farmers, craftsmen, fisherman etc. Their society became more complex, (in theory) dependant on industry and commerce rather than pillage and plunder. The political infrastructure ought to have shown signs of change out of necessity.

The problem is, as pointed out by Baalsamael, the writers either refuse or fail to recognize that narrative option, through fear of damaging the 'Horde vs Alliance" ™ . Instead every couple of expansions we just get reset back to vanila.

They said they wanted to revisit horde themes for bfa. Loyalty and Honor. They did not define what either of them meant to the horde, and just shrugged saying honor bad, loyalty bad, horde bad.

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Just “Maw” is fine.

If they had then maybe there would have been no Garrosh, nor Garrosh 2.0

I would have no reason to play if they did. There are tons of mmorpgs with no decent faction conflict. Even SWTOR has a decent one but no good rpwpvp.

You can have faction conflict without incoherently reducing the foundational race of one of the factions to Genetic Fascists or incoherently Retvrning™ the game’s story back to Warcraft 1 crap that goes against the point of WoW to begin with.

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It was poorly executed, for whatever reason any of us want to cling to, but the concept that institutions founded on villainous concepts can be villainous even when the people who exist within the framework of those institutions are not villains, is a concept that is worth exploring in a fantasy setting. In fact there has never been a better time in modern history to explore that concept, and fantasy settings like WoW have done an excellent job of exploring complex social problems since The Lord of the Rings, through The Crystal Shard and yes, even World of Warcraft.

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Not when the majority of the faction is based on people of color, such that you’re just making a tedious variation of Evil Savages, which we can see with the GD and Twitter defense of Exploring Kalimdor

“Actually since the Horde are Evil Savages, using Racist Tropes is accurate, correct, and good”

Poorly executed is an understatement, their IRL statements regarding the Orcs and the Horde during the Thrall Panel reveals a far, far deeper problem with how they perceive these themes and concepts.

They are incapable of doing anything clever and for it to land correctly until they re-examine these perceptions, and as such should avoid them wholesale, or commit to tedious mandatory “balance” of in-game extremism to both factions.

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Why would they base a race partly on the Mongol hordes, and call them inherently savages?

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And this isn’t even going into the specific incoherence of How Orcish Honor Works when comparing the instances of Grom, Nazgrim, Durotan, Varok, and Thrall

Not even ethnically consistent

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Because this was based on warhammer, which was in turn based on Tolkien’s work which was in turn based on European sensibilities which did not have a pretty history with the mongols who did at one time invade and conquer nearly everything hence creating their own biases.

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Warhammer was fare more based on DnD, this was based on Tolkien, and Wheel of Time aswell.

Every modern Fantasy Setting have their roots in Tolkien…because his saga created the modern fantasy as a fundation for the most works.