Applauding the firm stance on covenants, Bliz. However

Community General Discussion
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#dontpulltheripcord ?

I really, really like the covenants idea. I’ll admit that I enjoy making that choice and feeling a commitment to it and that RPG-feeling Ion talks about does resonate with me in a game where I’m so used to getting what I want now’days. I want nothing more than the ‘locked in’ restriction on my choice opposed to the ‘you can do whatever you want with no consequences’ yet again. Letting this be less restrictive makes me feel the covenant-loyalty is extremely lacking since if I choose the covenant I like from day 1, say the kyrian, and Bob the warrior joins it every Fri/Sat of the week, but otherwise stays necrolord for questing, will be on the same equal loyalness level, per se, that bugs me.

Yeah, I expect a lot of negative response to this, but I know I’m not alone in enjoying the idea of covenants and an actual restrictive choice in a game that now allows you to choose everything you want, at any time, based off of when you need it. I hate the idea of everyone going the exact same ways to min/max and everyone being a cookie cutter as is. I don’t want that same mentality with covenants.

Of course I understand the min/max gang will all do it anyways by rolling what the best is for their class/spec, but it would be the same exact situation were they to have the ability to freely choose the abilities/covs whenever they’d like. Think: talent builds for top mythic raiders.

Thematically, I really would find it really unappealing to, all in one week, hop between all four covenant abilities to be just that…little…bit better in x or y content. The uniqueness of your character is completely gone with that option. Just another scenario with people looking up online what cov ability is best for the content they want to run, then switching to it. The choice there feels so boring and predetermined. What makes it worse is those who feel they should be rewarded to one covenant for staying with it will be on the same footing as those who swap freely.

Now, either way you spin it, you’re gonna have a crowd of people who feel they need to roll a certain cov, or, if you could freely choose, would end up swapping them out at anytime like everything else we get in the game. And then the crowd who likes and enjoys their covenant and gets denied by people who don’t want a kyrian death knight in their +10 despite them being a good player. The community is just as much to blame for this problem. Whether or not you can freely choose your covenant or not, this will be a problem based off the community’s mentality that min/max culture is a necessity for success and player skill is not. So with the current state of SL’s it’ll be one side choosing their covenant based off of aesthetic choices, personal preferences, etc and then the ‘best dps’ half. One side will feel inferior for choosing aesthetically, on part of the ‘best dps’ side not inviting them to content they’d clear anyways but not 2 minutes faster. The other side will feel like they can’t choose aesthetically because the best dps covenant is too important.

It would seem a logical idea to make the covenant abilities a standalone thing, like new talent choices that players can swap in and out from an NPC in Oribos or something. Then the theme of keeping a covenant commitment is more plausible to the crowd who seeks to move around a bit more.
That said, between the two extremes (One being the way it currently is, and the other finding a way to swap covenants freely) I whole-hardheartedly believe the first is superior because I do in fact like some choice and uniqueness to my character in a game where virtually everything else can be swapped and built to whatever the ‘best build’ is. i see no fun whatsoever in the option to swap them at will for the ability to min/max whatever content one may be doing. I like the restriction on not performing as well here, but shining there. I understand some do not.

Is there no way, Blizzard, to find a way to make the covenant abilities be taken away completely from the covenants themselves, but rather a ‘buff’ like thing players can swap? Give an NPC the option to bless players with the desired ability they want, but allow them to remain loyal to their covenant for everything else they desire. This would allow freedom to choose by aesthetic preferences while opening up the option for players to swap abilities that feel much better catered to them for the content they’re doing. As well, the crowd who wants the best performance may yet choose the covenant they like most aesthetically without feeling like they have to choose another?

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Really picking a covenant just seems as though it’s mocking the playerbase. I think they are trolling us. On purpose. When you start off in SL you literally get introduced to every faction and they are all like omg awesome you came to help us. They all pretty much accept you. Then all of a sudden you are forced to pick one? Like what? How does this make sense.

Also oh btw here is a new ability and a wonky unbalanced talent tree.

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The only thing wrong with covenants right now is character power attached to them. Uncouple character power from covenant choice and SL would be looking amazing.

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Do you expect that players, and their chosen covenant, will not see any payoff later in the expansion as the story unfolds?
In my opinion, we’ll see the story unearth quite a bit more as to how/why some covenants aren’t as keen on the others.
I refuse to believe they’re all best friends and have no care at all if you hop around between them because ‘im maw-walker’

Stick to classic I guess. I hear that version of the game is much better on allowing free choice, not making you feel restricted and unbalanced, as well as allowing for complete control over a unique playstyle in any spec, build or role you want. Sorry about some unbalanced covenant abilities though. I’m sure they’ll be the difference in your mythic dungeons getting completed versus not being able to beat the first boss.

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So make your choice and stick with it without ruining other people’s playstyle.

There’s going to be even stricter cookie cutters now that you really can’t experiment and need specific pairings for content types.

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Not unless it’s standard Blizzard contrivance.

You have a lot more faith in Blizzard’s modern-day storytelling than I do, I must admit.

If you had any idea just how unbalanced some of these things are you’d actually be sorry, man.

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covenants aren’t a problem… waiting 6 days for conduits or w/e is far more annoying

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Nah. I’ll pick the most powerful covenant then watch all the stories on YouTube later.

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I’m a firm believer in that the covenants shouldn’t have an effect on player power. I also believe what Blizzard is doing is good for the game - they are sticking to their guns and not folding to the pressure of the community. I feel that, in time, we will all see that this covenant issue was blown way out of proportion and that people were talking about doom and gloom when in reality this will be an afterthought so fast it will make our heads spin. The community, not even a month or two after launch, will be focused on complaining about something else that doesn’t really matter much.

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I said that would be the case? Of course min/maxer types will always feel restricted to certain gameplay styles. No matter what occurs in future expansions, those types will always want everything entitled to them for the best numbers.
To your first point, if some people’s playstyle is bing, bing, bing changing covs at free will, it takes the whole fun out of sticking with a covenant. The fun of it for many is feeling the desire to be loyal to a covenant knowing there may be some negatives alongside the positives. To know everyone else can outshine them by swapping around defeats the purpose of sticking with the covenant altogether. They’d just be cast aside by the elitist types for wanting to remain in the covenant they like while gaining nothing from it while anyone else can hop back and forth without restriction.

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Same principles as a class. I’m guessing you like the class you picked when you started, and it’s important to you.
Choose some NPC friends, make some stories out of it. It makes sense. But that’s all that’s required to give it some qualitative meaningful value, and where it should stop. Tying it all to objectively beneficial abilities almost reverts the value of your choice, effectively convincing yourself that your initial selection was wrong as your actual gameplay takes the hit.

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lol fine, if your playstyle is to min/max for PvE success then have at it enjoying your time spent in x or y covenant that is best for you ability-wise. Beats you going around and getting everything you want whenever you want it.

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Why does this affect you?

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My worry is that the outspoken min/max community will paint this picture that the doom and gloom of covenant restrictions will ruin the expansion. Under no circumstance should the average, casual playerbase (Majority of the playerbase) be at any lesser advantage to success in the game if they work hard. The loud minority are painting the doom and gloom that may scare any casual players into believing just that and it’s simply not true. People feel entitled to have everything they want. I’m absolutely a fan of not giving into that mindset.

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Why does what others find fun take away from your enjoyment? (Outside of a griefing type situation)

That’s even more significant of a commitment when you have the option to change easily back and forth, but you choose to remain loyal despite the drawbacks.

People should play what’s fun for them, not worry about others doing better. Unless performance is the most important to you, which makes all the hububb about sticking with one being meaningful a moot point.

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The biggest problem I have with the whole “RP elements” argument for covenants is that it doesn’t really do a lot of the things that Ion keeps going on about.

It absolutely does not define “who my character is”. This is, at best, a temporary alliance while I deal with a threat from the Shadowlands. Even if not on a RP realm I like to have a sense of personality for my characters and I still feel like it doesn’t fit very well.

I already have choices that define who my character is: Human, Alliance, Paladin. Those are permanent choices that have lasting meaning. If Blizzard wanted to do an expansion that doubles down on fleshing out my permanent choices, I’d be behind it.

However even from a RP angle, the covenants just fall completely flat for me.

The other part of it is that they easily could have separated character power from the story aspect and it would have helped a lot. At some point we need to acknowledge this is a multiplayer MMO, not playing single-player Baldur’s Gate where playing a bottom tier build only impacts yourself.

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No, then people who complain that all of the transmogs/lore is tied to each covenant. You think you can make the player base happy, but you can’t.

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I applaud Blizzard to not cater to people who need every advantage they can get or else they’ll complain. Many players enjoy the ‘meaningful choice’ aspect. If you can just swap them out at free will then the entirety of the system feels empty and meaningless, thus any loyalty or devotion to a covenant is hollow because you’re restricting yourself from being as good as you can be with nothing to gain for it. Some players won’t care about it and remain loyal, while some will feel their loyalty is senseless due to the idea that anyone can come join their covenant whenever they want and be on equal footing. That restriction has to exist if they want covenants to feel unique and something we take pride in. Otherwise they’re literally just tools. The playstyle of swapping covenants will be the meta and the covenant choice is left feeling incredibly meaningless but to see the story.
You have to understand that if you allow the playerbase to choose freely without consequence that the other half who like the ‘meaningful choice’ will feel the entire covenant feature is pointless and more like a tool to swap whenever you want. My warlock has been a proud kyrian from day one and that makes me unique to 75% of the other warlocks versus ‘Woo! Today I’m a night fae, yesterday I was a necrlord and when I raid tonight I’ll go venthyr!’ Wow, I love when every player can freely do what they want and disregard any restrictional consequence in the name of mix/maxing. Let’s definitely allow them to get what they want and make the covenants a player power tool only, and then ruin the story, covenant feature that for many will feel far more special with it remaining an impactful choice.

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The only meaningful choice here is if you care about power or not.

You can remain loyal without Blizzard forcing you to do so.

Why can’t we have a meaningful choice without player power? Many other games are able to do this.

Min/Maxing is also an RPG element. But this isn’t even the main point people have against locked covenant abilities. It’s just more fun to use new abilities. When we got a new talent row in WotLK or Cata, who didn’t go try out all the new talents in different content? It’s not fun to see 8 new abilities but only get to play with 2.

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"You think you can do these things, but you just can’t Nemo."